Best WWII fighter pilot....?

[Wayne Little]

While I'm a fan of both Hartmann and Marseille, my vote goes to Heinz Bar.

Participated in the air war from start to finish, flew on all fronts, flew all the primary fighters, fought against all types of enemy in all kinds of conditions and continued to rack up kills anywhere,any time, 220 is not a bad effort, I think!

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

220 grounded pilots with one enemy pilot still flying.

Yeah, not bad at all!

[rochie]

i went for nowotny because 258 kills in 442 missions says a lot to me
would love to have gone for bader ( a favorite of mine) or evan saburo sakai but felt a lufwaffe pilot had to get my vote for the amount of combat they had to go through against ever increasing odds

[Schwarze_13]

Originally Posted by plan_D

The question that should be asked here is, what makes a good pilot? Is a pilot target practice? Is a good pilot a pilot than can stay alive? Is a great pilot a man who can shoot down enemy aircraft? Is an amazing pilot a man who can lead his whole squadron into ace status?

Indeed. What exactly is the criteria for best WWII fighter pilot?

I would have to agree with Adler that Hartmann should be considered the greatest purely for an official score that will never be surpassed.

Then there is Marseille - yes he was a brilliant pilot and superb marksman:

"Combat reports analysed in Berlin show that, at the height of his powers, he expended an average of fifteen shells and bullets per victory. More than one wingman has described the first shells hitting the nose of the enemy aircraft then 'walking' back to the cockpit area." - Mike Spick

However, Marseille was reckless and was it not for his unfortunate death he would probably have stayed with JG27 and ended up flying Reichsluftverteidigung - in which case how long would he have survived?

Moreover, how successful would Hartmann have been in the West and how long would he have survived in the RLV? Look at Barkhorn - after he was transferred to the West as Kommodore of JG6 he failed to score. Whereas Rall (who was by many of his contemporaries considered to be the best deflection shot in the Luftwaffe), when sent to the West to command II/JG11, added only 2 (those being his final 2) victories before being shot down and hospitalized.

In fairness though, some Luftwaffe pilots failed to make the transition the other way!

You may notice i have not mentioned any pilots of other nationalites. Whilst i have my favourites from other air forces, it is obvious that the winner of the poll will be a German

So - I would personally have to go with someone like Galland, Priller, Mayer, Oesau, Bühligen or Bär. These men were not only very successful in the West but were also outstanding tacticians and formation leaders.

I voted for 'Pritzl' for the same reasons as listed by Adler and because " a disagreement with Göring kept him from any higher decorations, and his outspoken refusal to obey orders he considered reckless brought him a demotion in 1943." - Donald Caldwell.

...he was NOT a "good litlle Nazi"!

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

...he was NOT a "good litlle Nazi"!

.

[lesofprimus]

Heinz Bar on my side as well, for the same reasons I put up eveytime we talk on this subject...

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by Soundbreaker Welch?

I think I'll vote for an American pilot in this poll, just to help get one to the next level. It's a patriotic thing, anyway.

unfortunately Bob van der Stock or Gerben Sonderman are not on the list, so I cannot be patriotic. But Van der Stock mostly got his fame because he was one of the three successful fugitives of the great escape, anyway.

[Njaco]

Going with Heinz as well.... just to expand upon the previous posts:

First kill against French aircraft in September '39
7 victories during the Battle of France
10 victories during Battle of Britain
reached 60 kills during Barbarossa including 6 in one day 30 Aug 1941
60 kills during operations over Malta and North Africa 1942
Then to Reich Defense for his final scores.

among those kills are single and twin engined fighters and multiple engined bombers.

A very well rounded pilot operating in all theatres and scoring and surviving. You may have the highest score or the most accurate deflection shot but Heinz Bar was everything, everywhere.

[phoenix7187]

I was just reading about bar and you all make strong argument in his case. He did fly everything from the old 109's to the 262. Now you got me thinking.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I personally have to go with Heinz Bär.

Short bio:

Missions flown: 1000

Theatres flown in: West, East and Med

Kills: 221 (124 in the West and 16 with the Me 262)

Shot Down: 18

Acft Flown:
Junkers Ju 52/3m
Messerschmitt Bf 109E
Messerschmitt Bf 109F
Focke Wulf 190 A-7
Messerschmitt Me 262

Units Assigned To:
JG 51
JG 77
JGr. Süd
JG 1
JG 3
EJG 2
JV 44

Units Commanded:
12./JG 51
I.JG 77
JGr. Süd
II./JG 1
JG 3
III./EJG 2
JV 44

Awards:
Silver Would Badge
German Cross in Gold (27 May 1942)
Front Flying Clasp of the Luftwaffe in Gold with Pennant "1000"
Honor Goblet of the Luftwaffe
Africa Cuff Title
Iron Cross 2nd Class
Iron Cross 1st Class (July 1940)
Knights Cross (2. July 1941)
Oakleaves (14. August 1941)
Swords (16. February 1942)

I voted for Bar but it is impossible (for me) to make an objective choice. Absent each of these guys entering combat from a level head on pass and then having an elimination 'fly off' at different altitudes to force different tactics and skills how would we have a perspective of the best combat flyer, much less the 'best fighter pilot'.

I could have just as easily picked Preddy or Hanson or Bong or Gabby Gabreski or Johnny Johnson or Stanford Tuck or anyone on that excellent list - all great fighter pilots that didn't have near the opportunity to score - and almost all of their scores over enemy territory where there was no second (or 18th) chance.

Of the German community, the ones that fought long and survived in the West should probably have a 'leg up'.. ditto some of the Jap fighter pilots and top Russians because of the quality they faced day after day.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by drgondog

I voted for Bar but it is impossible (for me) to make an objective choice. Absent each of these guys entering combat from a level head on pass and then having an elimination 'fly off' at different altitudes to force different tactics and skills how would we have a perspective of the best combat flyer, much less the 'best fighter pilot'.

I could have just as easily picked Preddy or Hanson or Bong or Gabby Gabreski or Johnny Johnson or Stanford Tuck or anyone on that excellent list - all great fighter pilots that didn't have near the opportunity to score - and almost all of their scores over enemy territory where there was no second (or 18th) chance.

I agree with you 100%. That is why I said this poll is just for fun. I really wish people would start voting for pilots not based off of how many kills they had, it would start up interesting conversations.

I really hoping that was going to happen and then people could learn about other pilots as well.

[Njaco]

Since alot of us are voting for Heinz, I would like to add another overlooked pilot of the Luftwaffe that closely parralled Bar's combat record.

Major Erich Rudorffer of JG 2

from;

Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Rudorffer

Erich Rudorffer scored a total of 224 victories, placing him 7th on the all time list. This score did not come without a cost: Rudorffer flew over 1,000 missions, entering combat on 302 occasions, was shot down 16 times, and baled out 9 times! Of note are the 58 Il-2 Sturmoviks included in his 138 Eastern Front victories (all while flying the Fw 190) and the 10 four-engined bombers shot down in Reichsverteidigung missions.

Flew in every theatre as Bar and had almost a carbon copy of Bar's war record.

[pbfoot]

As indicated I voted for Marseille , as i think he was the best of WW2 but if I had to opt for an allied pilot it would have to be Buerling he much the same as the pilots flying in Guadalcanal was battling disease , small rations , beat up aircraft but he was also flying against a better foe IMHO. There is no doubt in my mind the LW and RA aircraft would be much tougher foes then the Japanese for one reason the aircraft he was facing were a tougher bird.

[Soren]

I can't deside between Marseilles or Hartmann...

Hartmann was an aw inspiring shot and Marseilles was a master of dogfighting. Furthermore Marseilles fought exclusively against the Western Allies whilst Hartmann flew almost exclusively against the VVS.

That having been said, it's really very hard to decide which pilot is the best with so many great choices, I mean there are probably a dozen or more German pilots with 100 or more kills which were as good as the top scoring aces but didn't get as many opportunities, and the same goes for some Allied pilots.