Best WWII fighter pilot....?

[lesofprimus]

This is getting retarded Marshall... The reason why the Germans lead the list is simple....

They survived in a War that took thousands and thousands of airmens lives, and these few skilled pilots lived all the way through it...

U cannot and should not try to compare a guy with 20 kills to a guy that had over 200.... Its stupid to even suggest it...

There were many great pilots, including ur nomination from Poland, but in the end, numbers DO make a difference... Theres a reason why the top 3 vote getters in this Poll are Germans, and it aint because we dont have any idea what we're talking about....

[marshall]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

This is getting retarded Marshall... The reason why the Germans lead the list is simple....

They survived in a War that took thousands and thousands of airmens lives, and these few skilled pilots lived all the way through it...

U cannot and should not try to compare a guy with 20 kills to a guy that had over 200.... Its stupid to even suggest it...

There were many great pilots, including ur nomination from Poland, but in the end, numbers DO make a difference... Theres a reason why the top 3 vote getters in this Poll are Germans, and it aint because we dont have any idea what we're talking about....

I haven't said that Urbanowicz was a better pilot than great German aces, also I don't think that you don't have any idea what are you talking about, I said that I'm not able to tell who was the best. I'm not saying that numbers don't have any meaning because efectivness would be of the things that the best pilot had to have, but does in a 1 on 1 dogfight always wins the guy with more kills under his belt? I don't think so.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by marshall

Maybe it's becuase I don't think that there are "3 or 4 obvious German choices". If we have looked only on the number of kills then there would be only one choice. I stated earlier why I voted like I voted.

Yes, you did:

Originally Posted by marshall

I just thought that in that wide spectrum of pliots it would be nice to see one from Poland.

I'd like to point out that citing nationality as an argument for why someone was the best pilot of WWII is NOT a compelling logical argument.

Urbanowicz is certainly worth discussing, but you can't say that he was the best pilot of the war; especially for the reason you've given. In fact, I'm not even sure you can make the argument that he was the best Polish pilot of the war; Stanisław Skalski certainly gives him a run for his money.

Originally Posted by marshall

And I'm bringing up some guy you never heard of before exactly because you never heard of him before.

And I agree that these more obscure pilots are worth discussing, but it's absurd to say that one of them was the best pilot of the entire war just because he was born on a certain patch of ground. The only reason you're choosing Urbanowicz is because you yourself are Polish. It's not sound reasoning. Someone from New Zealand applying the same reasoning would argue that Colin Falkland Gray was the best pilot of the war. We need to be a little more objective than picking on a patriotic (nationalistic) basis. If nothing else, World War II taught us how bad patriotism/nationalism is.

Originally Posted by marshall

How can you decide who was the best if you don't even know who to consider? What If someone heard about Hartmann and doesn't heard about Marseille, can he make a good decision? I don't think so. Thousands of pilots took part in ww2 are you sure you heard of the one who was the best before? Maybe not...

But I do know who to consider. Here is a list of the top aces from WWII:

List of World War II air aces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just look at it! Look how many Germans had more than 100 kills! No pilot from any other country was even into triple digits, and there were 15 German pilots who had more than 200 kills! I think it's interesting to discuss the other pilots, but if we were being objective, then the poll above would include nothing but Germans. Seriously, Hartmann had 20 times as many kills as Urbanowicz! Even if you SQUARED Urbanowicz's kill count, he still doesn't win! He wasn't the best pilot of the war by any stretch of the imagination!

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

Just look at it! Look how many Germans had more than 100 kills! No pilot from any other country was even into triple digits, and there were 15 German pilots who had more than 200 kills

And many German pilots also flew over 1000 combat missions - ever look into how many missions were flown by the average combat pilot in the ETO?

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by marshall

I haven't said that Urbanowicz was a better pilot than great German aces,

Sure you did! This thread and its poll are asking who the best pilot of the war was. You've made it clear that Urbanowicz has your vote. If I am mischaracterizing your opinion, and if you actually think that the best pilot was a German, then by all means say so.

Originally Posted by marshall

I'm not saying that numbers don't have any meaning because efectivness would be of the things that the best pilot had to have, but does in a 1 on 1 dogfight always wins the guy with more kills under his belt? I don't think so.

Marseille would have torn him to shreds. Here is an interesting anecdote about him (from his Wikipedia article):

On 3 June 1942, Marseille attacked alone a formation of 16 Curtiss P-40 fighters and shot down six aircraft of No. 5 Squadron SAAF, five of them in six minutes, including three aces: Robin Pare (six victories), Douglas Golding (6.5 victories) and Andre Botha (five victories). His wingman Rainer Pöttgen, nicknamed Fliegendes Zählwerk the ("Flying Counting Machine"),[36] said of this fight:

Let's put this into perspective: Marseille attacked a formation of 6 enemy planes all by himself. That's just crazy. Then he shoots down five of them, *including 3 aces* in less time than it takes to make instant soup. These weren't rookie pilots or poorly-trained Russians, and they weren't flying obsolete planes.

The guy obviously had enormous skill.

Here's another argument in favor of Marseille: Galland thought that Marseille was the best pilot ever. In his own words:

"Marseille was the unrivalled virtuoso among the fighter pilots of World War 2. His achievements had previously been regarded as impossible and they were never excelled by anyone after his death."

Our opinions on the matter (mine included) are worth squat compared to Galland's opinion. If Galland said that Marseille was the best pilot of the war, then how can anyone here argue?

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

And many German pilots also flew over 1000 combat missions - ever look into how many missions were flown by the average combat pilot in the ETO?

This is a very good point. Even the most experienced Allied pilot didn't have a fraction of the combat experience that literally dozens of German pilots had. It's impossible to become a great pilot if they rotate you state-side to become an instructor as soon as you've flown a few dozen sorties.

By the way, who was the most experienced Allied pilot in terms of combat missions flown?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

This is a very good point. Even the most experienced Allied pilot didn't have a fraction of the combat experience that literally dozens of German pilots had. It's impossible to become a great pilot if they rotate you state-side to become an instructor as soon as you've flown a few dozen sorties.

By the way, who was the most experienced Allied pilot in terms of combat missions flown?

Good question - I do know Col. Don Blakeslee flew over 400 sorties and although claiming 15 aircraft (I know JoeB might be watching ) He spent most of his time "directing: the battle.

I also remember reading that some of the pace of kills by allied pilots closely matched their German counterparts, this being on the Western Front.

[marshall]

P1234567890, once more time, I haven't said that Urbanowicz was the best pilot of ww2. I said that I'm not able to say who was the best. If you have problem with that I voted on the poll not on the best one because I don't know who was the best one, I can't help you.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Good question - I do know Col. Don Blakeslee flew over 400 sorties and although claiming 15 aircraft (I know JoeB might be watching ) He spent most of his time "directing: the battle.

I also remember reading that some of the pace of kills by allied pilots closely matched their German counterparts, this being on the Western Front.

Kill-pace is a reasonably good measure of skill. Hartmann flew 1404 combat missions and shot down enemy 352 planes, which is 0.2507 kills per mission.

With 400 sorties and 15 kills, Blakeslee had a ratio of 0.0375 kills/mission. Even if you consider that Hartmann was flying against Russians, that's one heck of a difference.

Does anyone know how many combat missions Marseille flew? I'm guessing that he had a very high ratio.

Also, does anyone know who had the highest ratio of all pilots in the war? (Let's say with a minimum score of 15, or else there'll be a bunch of pilots who only flew a couple of missions and got lucky and shot down a few planes.)

Another point to be made is that by the end of the war the Germans had run out of pilots and were sending totally green kids up into the air, so kills against Germans at the end of the war aren't as impressive as during, say, the Battle of Britain.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by marshall

P1234567890, once more time, I haven't said that Urbanowicz was the best pilot of ww2. I said that I'm not able to say who was the best. If you have problem with that I voted on the poll not on the best one because I don't know who was the best one, I can't help you.

Can you narrow it down to a top 10 list?

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

This is a very good point. Even the most experienced Allied pilot didn't have a fraction of the combat experience that literally dozens of German pilots had. It's impossible to become a great pilot if they rotate you state-side to become an instructor as soon as you've flown a few dozen sorties.

There's no reason to think that American pilots would not have had more impressive victory totals if they had not been rotated back as instructors. But the object was not to see who could shoot down the most aircraft, the object was to gain air superiority and win the war. The American aces were far more valuable instructing new/replacement pilots, and that policy paid off when the new pilots got into combat. Germany could not afford that luxury, nor could Japan. I'm taking nothing away from the great German pilots, (I voted for Hartmann, could have voted for Marseille).

TO

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

Does anyone know how many combat missions Marseille flew? I'm guessing that he had a very high ratio.

I found the answer to my own question. Apparently he flew 388 combat missions. He had 158 kills, so that's a ratio of 0.4072. That's a lot higher than Hartmann's ratio, AND he was flying against Western pilots rather than Russians. He died in 1942 just when he was really getting going. Who knows how many total kills he might have had if he hadn't died in that freak accident.

Here's a picture of him; he was a skinny little guy!

[marshall]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

Can you narrow it down to a top 10 list?

I was thinking about it earlier but I haven't come up with any good, in my opinion, system of ranking the pilots. Maybe I will have some idea how to do it well, till then I will hold to that I'm not able to say who was the best.


If anyone would be intrested about the ranking system, I was thinking about something like that:
(the numbers are just examples)
1 point for a kill in a superior aircraft, 2 poinst for a kill in a inferior aircraft (maybe different ammount of points for fighters and bombers)
plus some extra points for the skills of enemy, I mean more points for fighting with early Luftwaffe pilots than with late Luftwaffe pilots, or more points for shooting down west Allied pilots then Soviet pilots, then all diveded by sortie number
as you can see the system would be quite complicated and I'm not sure if it would have worked.