Best WWII fighter pilot....?

[marshall]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

That's an interesting scoring system, but I guess my claim is this: Marseille and Hartmann (and the other top Germans) will be at the top of *ANY* reasonable scoring scheme that anyone could possibly come up with.

There is very high probability of that. But such a system could show some interesting overlooked normally things.

Originally Posted by P1234567890

Barring that, all we could do determine if one pilot is better than the other is to somehow bring them back to life, put them in identical planes, and starting in identical conditions let them dogfight it out. Repeat this experiment a thousand times, and then look at the score. In my opinion, all of the evidence suggests that Marseille would do the best in this experiment.

I would like to see some of these fights.


BTW Walter Nowotny had a 0.583 ratio

[FLYBOYJ]

Then you had Bob Hansen - 20 enemy planes in six consecutive flying days.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Then you had Bob Hansen - 20 enemy planes in six consecutive flying days.

Not bad, but Marseille shot down 17 enemy planes in one day (Sept. 1st, 1942) during which he flew three sorties. By the time he got really good, he was shooting down 3 or more planes per sortie on a regular basis.

The really strange and amazing thing about him is that he was *really* good at shooting down several planes within a matter of a few minutes. The guy was absolutely deadly when he tore into an enemy squadron, and being heavily outnumbered didn't scare him at all. Hartmann was much more cautious.

Here is a pretty good write-up on him:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hanstate.html

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by marshall

BTW Walter Nowotny had a 0.583 ratio

Wow, that's really good! Were his kills mostly soviets?

Is his the highest ratio of all times?

[marshall]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

Wow, that's really good! Were his kills mostly soviets?

Is his the highest ratio of all times?

255 out of 258 over Soviets (source wikipedia). I don't know if it's the highest ratio ever but I think that for such a scale (number of kills) it is.

[P1234567890]

Here's an interesting one: David McCampbell.

David McCampbell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Relevant passage:

On October 24, 1944, he repeated the feat, the only American airman to do so. McCampbell and his wingman attacked a Japanese force of 60 aircraft. McCampbell shot down nine, setting a single mission aerial combat record.

Nine kills in one sortie is pretty darned good, although in fairness he ended the war with only 34 kills, and his famous mission was flown in late 1944, a time when Japanese pilots were hardly getting any training at all anymore.

I'd like to know his ratio. Does anyone know how many combat missions he flew?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

Not bad, but Marseille shot down 17 enemy planes in one day (Sept. 1st, 1942) during which he flew three sorties.

Yep -well aware of that feat and that's why I eventually voted for him - but I think if you did a ratio for him (Bob Hansen) he'd be up there with the top German aces although at the time of his feat the quality of Japanese fighter piolts was diminishing.

[P1234567890]

Incidentally, there is good reason to believe that in a full-out modern war, U.S. pilots would be able to duplicate the feat of getting 9 kills in one mission.

Check it out:

F-22 Pilot Scores NINE "Kills" On a Single Mission, page 1

Still, it isn't quite the same thing. I'll bet that pretty much anyone who can land would be able to rack up plenty of kills in an F-22; it's technology and not skill which matters today.

[Njaco]

I'm trying to find somewhere that I read that with ammo expended and kills who was the most accurate shot in the Luftwaffe. While doing that I found this:

from "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" by Mike Spick

"The main factor was opportunity. By and large the Experten flew more sorties than thier Allied opponents, and encountered the enemy in the air far more times. In 'Full Circle', British top scorer Johnnie Johnson compared his record to that of 'Pips' Priller: .....with 38 victories, which may be compared with Priller's 101, for we both fought over the same territory for about the same time, but he saw many more hostile aeroplanes than I did....
....At the other extreme, Hartmann entered combat on no fewer than 825 occasions, so, given that he survived and shot straight, his enormous score is hardly surprising. By comparison with some, his sortie-to-victory ratio was realtively modest. Some Allied pilots did much better: to quote but one example, American ace Robert Johnson took only 91 sorties to accumilate his 28 victories. And he flew the supposedly inferior Thunderbolt!"

Scoring is great but how long and how much ammo it took I think should be considered.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by Njaco

Scoring is great but how long and how much ammo it took I think should be considered.

Well, Marseille was famous for being very frugal with the bullets. He was such an excellent shot that he was often able to shoot enemy planes down using only a few bullets each.

According to this web site: http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hanstate.html

Facts are that Marseille is still acknowledged as among the best marksmen in the Luftwaffe. The Germans were very meticulous in filing combat reports with all relevant data to include time of battle, area of operation, opposition encountered, as well as an in-depth armorers report. At the end of a mission, the armorers would count the number of bullets and cannon shells expended during the fight. Marseille would often average an astonishing 15 bullets required per victory, and this with a combat resulting in his downing of several allied aircraft. No other German pilot was close to Marseille in this area.

[lesofprimus]

Originally Posted by marshall

I haven't said that Urbanowicz was a better pilot than great German aces,

When Adler asked if u wanted ur vote changed from Gabreski to Urbanowicz, u said yes, which means u voted for him.... Nationistic pride is great and all, but be realistic... Voting for something simply for a nations pride is dumb and uneducated, to say the least.... If u dont know enough about the subject, why fu*kin vote???

also I don't think that you don't have any idea what are you talking about,

Oh really dumb-ass??? I guess that since my Grandfather was an Ace, and I grew up in the Black Sheep Community with other Aces, including Boyington, I guess I am clueless... Or how about the conversations Ive had with Galland or Yeager or Gabreski or Vejtasa or etc etc... I guess I have no idea on the subject.... U had best keep ur fu&*kin moth shut moron or I will break it off in ur ass.... Dont piss of a Moderator, ever heard of that???

I said that I'm not able to tell who was the best.

Then why should ur opinion in this thread have any bearing??? U are un-educated in this topic, so maybe u should shut ur yap and read what others who DO have the experience on the subject are saying....

but does in a 1 on 1 dogfight always wins the guy with more kills under his belt? I don't think so.

Then u think wrong.... 9 outta 10 times, the more experienced pilot will take it to the greenie, in a very bad way... Ask the Russian VVS about that, would u.... And always is a strong word however, since there are a few instances where a rookie took out an accomplished Experten, but they are VERY very limited....

And besides the point, over 75% of all shootdowns were not dogfights, but bounces where the victim had no idea he was flying straight into an Aces gunsight....

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Oh really dumb-ass??? I guess that since my Grandfather was an Ace, and I grew up in the Black Sheep Community with other Aces, including Boyington, I guess I am clueless... Or how about the conversations Ive had with Galland or Yeager or Gabreski or Vejtasa or etc etc... I guess I have no idea on the subject.... U had best keep ur fu&*kin moth shut moron or I will break it off in ur ass.... Dont piss of a Moderator, ever heard of that???

I think you misunderstood our Polish friend. He wasn't saying that we are clueless. His original sentence contained a double negative. He said, "I don't think that you don't have any idea..." He also seems to have changed his mind, and now he isn't voting for anyone.

In any case, I have a question for everyone here who voted for Baer over Marseille. Why do you think he was the best?

[Wayne Little]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

In any case, I have a question for everyone here who voted for Baer over Marseille. Why do you think he was the best?

Reasons were given....as to why....

[Catch22]

And the Minister has spoken...

And as for your question my fellow Canadian, If you just look at the score he racked up in such short a time, and the fact that he used like 60 bullets per kill just shows that he was the best. Don't get me wrong, Baer was a great pilot, but Marseille would have easily beaten his score, and most likely Hartmann's as well.