Best WWII fighter pilot....?

[Lucky13]

Hartmann shot down his first Soviet victim on 5 November 1942, an Il-2 from 7 GShAP (7th Guards Ground Attack Aviation Regiment)..... Marseille, shot down his last 156-158 on the 26th of September 1942...
One just getting started and one KIA. I wonder what kinda score Marseille would have racked up if he'd been posted on the eastern front later....

[Catch22]

Speaking of aces, I know he's not on the list, but how many kills did Rudel actually have? On Wikipedia it says both 13 and 9. I need to know the correct one for my project.

[Lucky13]

Well, he did like to cause a lot of damage....flew 2,530 combat missions and successfully attacked many tanks, trains, ships, and other ground targets, claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed - including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery guns, a destroyer, two cruisers, a battleship...
How mayn aircrafts do you get for a destroyer, cruiser or a battleship?

[Catch22]

I would say at least 25 haha.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Hartmann shot down his first Soviet victim on 5 November 1942, an Il-2 from 7 GShAP (7th Guards Ground Attack Aviation Regiment)..... Marseille, shot down his last 156-158 on the 26th of September 1942...
One just getting started and one KIA. I wonder what kinda score Marseille would have racked up if he'd been posted on the eastern front later....

This is a really interesting question. If Marseille had survived to fight on the Eastern Front, and if he'd been active for the whole war, I'm guessing he would have ended up with 500+ kills in total.

Who knows, maybe it would have been even more than that. Hartmann knew enough to cut and run when the odds were too heavily against him. Marseille's idea of a good time was to do the exact opposite. He was outrageously aggressive, and that would have served him well on the Eastern front. There would have been lots of targets consisting of poorly-trained pilots in inferior aircraft. He might even have ended up with 1000+ kills. Who knows.

[Njaco]

Hartmann had fantastic number of kills.

Marseille was an expert shot especially deflection.

But are those the only criteria for a 'Best" pilot? Maybe if Marseille had survived to the end of the war? Maybe if Hartmann flew Defense of Reich? or maybe switched to the Fw 190 and then to the Me 262? How would Hartmann do against a Fortress? How about Marseille against a P-51? Would Marseille end up in a Me 163?

For a 'Best' pilot I'm taking into account number of kills, length of service, type of aircraft flown, who did he fly against, what theatre.

Heinz Bar either excelled or at the very least was just better than average in all those categories. Thats why I choose him.

[Ramirezzz]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

This is a really interesting question. If Marseille had survived to fight on the Eastern Front, and if he'd been active for the whole war, I'm guessing he would have ended up with 500+ kills in total.

Who knows, maybe it would have been even more than that. Hartmann knew enough to cut and run when the odds were too heavily against him.
Marseille's idea of a good time was to do the exact opposite. He was outrageously aggressive, and that would have served him well on the Eastern front.

Well, who survived the war and who - not?

There would have been lots of targets consisting of poorly-trained pilots in inferior aircraft. He might even have ended up with 1000+ kills. Who knows.

why not 10000? I believe with his style of flying he wouldn't last much longer on the eastern front as well. The poorly-trained pilots were not that poor at all since late 1943 and aircraft quality was rather equal, so with his bad*ss flying he wouldn't have much greater chances to survive and to achieve victories like in Africa.
BTW, there were other pilots on the Eastern Front who had as good shooting skills as Marseille. Rudorffer is just to mention.

[Catch22]

You can't really blame Marseille's death on lack of pilot skill, just bad luck.

[pbfoot]

If economic shooting is a skill at the top of the heap would be Beurling several times he said a that he hit the aircraft with so many rounds in through the cockpit and when his ammo and the wreck were examined it was confirmed. 12 rounds to drop a 109 and 3 cannon rounds in a Macchi with the same result . But aside from shooting eyesight would be the best weapon as the first to see his opponent has the advantage.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

He might even have ended up with 1000+ kills. Who knows.

I don't know. If Marseille was so reckless he might have been killed before reaching it.

Like you said, Hartmann only did so well because he was cautious as well as being agressive.



A Thank You to the person who voted for Adolf Galland! But he still needs more votes to survive to the next poll!

If not sure who to vote for, then........


Vote for George Preddy, the top P-51 Mustang Ace of WWII!

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by Ramirezzz

Well, who survived the war and who - not?

Marseille survived every single encounter with the enemy. In fact, his apparent suicide attacks against multiple enemy fighters usually ended up with all of them shot down and him without a scratch.

He died in a silly accident, and not in combat.

Originally Posted by Ramirezzz

why not 10000? I believe with his style of flying he wouldn't last much longer on the eastern front as well. The poorly-trained pilots were not that poor at all since late 1943 and aircraft quality was rather equal, so with his bad*ss flying he wouldn't have much greater chances to survive and to achieve victories like in Africa.

You're just saying this because you're biased, and it sounds a whole lot like you think that Marseille was killed in combat. There's no way you can make the argument that Russian pilots and fighters were as good as Western pilots and fighters. If Marseille could chew up Western pilots and aces, then he would certainly have been able to do the same on the Eastern Front.

And when you say that in late 1943 the aircraft quality was rather equal, exactly which planes are you comparing? Are you saying that the state-of-the-art Soviet planes of 1943 were as good as the best German planes of the same time?!?

Originally Posted by Ramirezzz

BTW, there were other pilots on the Eastern Front who had as good shooting skills as Marseille. Rudorffer is just to mention.

Look, Marseille invented and mastered absolutely deadly tactics which nobody else could even pull off. There's a reason why Galland said that he was the best fighter pilot of the war. I trust Galland's judgment on the matter. I'd like to know what Hartmann thought of Marseille's skills.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

If economic shooting is a skill at the top of the heap would be Beurling several times he said a that he hit the aircraft with so many rounds in through the cockpit and when his ammo and the wreck were examined it was confirmed. 12 rounds to drop a 109 and 3 cannon rounds in a Macchi with the same result . But aside from shooting eyesight would be the best weapon as the first to see his opponent has the advantage.

Hey, I want old Buzz to win the greatest ace award as much as any Canadian, but we've got to be honest here. He was a great pilot, but we can't compare him with the top Germans.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

Hey, I want old Buzz to win the greatest ace award as much as any Canadian, but we've got to be honest here. He was a great pilot, but we can't compare him with the top Germans.

look who I voted for and he can be compared to great pilots but in my mind Marseille was better. I'll vote for him as top allied pilot definately the top shot

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by Soundbreaker Welch?

I don't know. If Marseille was so reckless he might have been killed before reaching it.

If he'd survived North Africa, then he might have been killed later on by a mechanical malfunction in Russia. Who knows.

Besides, I'm not sure that reckless is the right word. If he could fly into a wing of 6 Western planes and shoot them all down in a few minutes, then is that a case of recklessness, or is it a case of audacious skill and courage?

Here's a little story about Marseille: (From Hans Joachim Marseille)

His most "classic" combat, by some analysts, was on June 6, 1942 at noon. While in a bomber escort mission, he saw a formation of 16 P-40 Tomahawk fighter and ground attack aircraft, but initially remained with his formation, escorting the German bombers. After ten minutes, he left his formation with the escorted bombers and flew alone to attack the 16 Tomahawks, but his faithful wingman followed him. Marseille climbed above a tight formation of four, then dived at them. From a range of just 200ft he selected his first victim and turned at him. From a very short range of just 150ft he fired and shot it down. He then pulled up, turned, and dived at his 2nd victim, shooting it down from a range of 150ft. The others began to dive, but Marseille dived at them, turned at his 3rd victim and shot it down at altitude of about 3500ft (1km). He passed thru the smoke from his 3rd victim and leveled at low altitude, and then climbed again. He then dived again, at his 4th victim. He fired from just 100ft, but his guns didn't fire, so he fired his machine guns from very short range and passed thru the debris from his 4th victim. At the moment he hit his 4th victim, his 3rd victim hit the ground after falling 3500ft, approximately 15 seconds between victories, an