Best WWII fighter pilot....?

[lesofprimus]

Yes, Allied pilots include Soviet/Russian pilots as well....

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Yes, Allied pilots include Soviet/Russian pilots as well....

On that topic, I have a question which is unrelated to aviation but I've been wondering about it for years and could never find an answer. Maybe someone here knows.

When Germany invaded Poland, France and Great Britain honored their treaty with Poland and declared war on Germany.

But the Soviet Union attacked Poland as well. Did Great Britain and France declare war on them as well?

If so, then this little factoid has been more or less extinguished from the history books. But if not, then why the hell not? In either case it's pretty interesting.

[lesofprimus]

The Soviets attacked Poland when it was under control of the Germans, unless theres something I missed here.....

Did the USA/England/Canada invade France???

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

No they did not declare war on the Soviets. That is a good thing as well because they certainly would not have been able to fight the combined forces of the Soviets and the Germans.

Eventually either the Soviets or the Germans would have turned on each other either way.

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

The Soviets attacked Poland when it was under control of the Germans, unless theres something I missed here.....

No the Soviets and the Germans had a pact and they both invaded Poland before Poland was conquered.

Germany invaded Poland on: 1 Sept 1939

Soviet Uniond invaded Poland on with the excuse of protecting Russians in the Polish areas on: 17 Sept 1939

This was all part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that broke up Eastern Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence.

Poland capitulated on: 6 Oct. 1939.

[P1234567890]

Hey, I just found an interesting claim buried in Wikipedia's FW-190 article:

Erich Rudorffer, a 222 victory ace was the highest '190 ace in the Luftwaffe. Rudorffer destroyed 138 aircraft on the Focke-Wulf, 13 in 17 minutes on 11 October 1943.

They cite Weal 1998, p. 92.

If this is true, then Rudorffer might have the record for the number of planes killed in one mission.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

The Soviets attacked Poland when it was under control of the Germans, unless theres something I missed here.....

No, Poland hadn't capitulated yet at the time of the Soviet invasion.

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Did the USA/England/Canada invade France???

D-Day?

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

No they did not declare war on the Soviets. That is a good thing as well because they certainly would not have been able to fight the combined forces of the Soviets and the Germans.

I agree that it probably would have been stupid to declare war on the USSR, but Britain and France had a treaty with Poland... It seems morally questionable to declare war on Germany because of the treaty, but not the USSR for doing exactly the same thing that Germany did.

In any case, are we absolutely sure that Britain and France DIDN'T declare war on the Soviets? At the time they were allies with Germany. They were supplying Germany with massive amounts of strategic resources such as oil and food.

I can imagine that they did declare war on the Soviets, but then rescinded it as soon as Hitler attacked Russia. Bigger things have been made to disappear from the history books, especially when concerning the Soviet Union. For example, the U.S. and Great Britain invaded the Soviet Union after World War I, and yet that little fact seems to have disappeared from history.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Besides, I'm not sure that reckless is the right word. If he could fly into a wing of 6 Western planes and shoot them all down in a few minutes, then is that a case of recklessness, or is it a case of audacious skill and courage?

It is great courage, but it also requires good confidence in your skills. If you overestimate your chances, your dead.


While Marseille was one of the best pilots of WWII, his action on June 6 1942 agains't 16 P-40's was really more of a terrific "bounce" than a dogfight. That he was able to destroy so many in a single bounce is almost too amazing to believe. But it happened, so I see your point.



What Erich Rudorffer did sounds also pretty amazing, and James E. Swett, with his 7 kills (in under 30 minutes?) time sounds also pretty amazing.

[Juha]

"In any case, are we absolutely sure that Britain and France DIDN'T declare war on the Soviets? "

You can be absolutely sure on that.
During Winter War, between Finland and SU 30th Nov 39 - 13th March 40, there was a risk that France and GB would drift to war against SU and there were for ex plans to bomb oil industry around Baku from a/fs in Middle East, just because soviet export of significant amount of oil to Germany, but nothing came out of those plans. Except some recon flight over Baku by RAF Blenheims.

On Rudorffer, if you dig some of his claims deeper you might find some suspicious. And it seems that of Novotny's first 10 victories most were "air" with little "victory" included. That at least by the studies of some serious Russian researchers. I cannot say anything of his later career. It simply was that some pilots were more reliable claimers than others.

Juha

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

I can imagine that they did declare war on the Soviets, but then rescinded it as soon as Hitler attacked Russia. Bigger things have been made to disappear from the history books, especially when concerning the Soviet Union.

No they did not declare war on Russia and they did not rescind a declaration of war.

If there had been a declaration of war it would have been announced and common history today. No declaration was announced. Britain and France protested the Soveit Invasion and condemned it but nothing else.

Originally Posted by P1234567890

For example, the U.S. and Great Britain invaded the Soviet Union after World War I, and yet that little fact seems to have disappeared from history.

What are you talking about????

Edit I finally realized what you are talking about. Sorry...

Yes it is true that allied nations including the United Kingdom (Britian and Ireland), Japan, The United States, France and Canada supported the Russian "White Army".

However it was not an invasion of Russian per say. The Expeditionary forces were allready there to prevent strategic places from falling into German hands after the Russian Offensive of 1917 was stopped by the Germans by launching a counter offensive.

Then in 1918 they intervened in the Russian Civil War and supported side of the White Army who were fighting against the Communists until 1920.

[P1234567890]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

No they did not declare war on Russia and they did not rescind a declaration of war.

If there had been a declaration of war it would have been announced and common history today. No declaration was announced. Britain and France protested the Soveit Invasion and condemned it but nothing else.

You're probably right, but this means that Britain and France did not live up to their treaty with Poland, at least not in spirit.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

What are you talking about????

It's true: The U.S. invaded the Soviet Union after World War I. It was done in the context of the Russian Civil War. The Western Allies fought alongside the 'White Russians' against the Bolsheviks.

Weird History 101 - Google Book Search

See page 267.

Here is another good reference: Russian Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And another: Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that the U.S. and Britain sent so many troops deep into Russia in order to fight against Communism is one of the main reasons why the Communists were so paranoid about the West for the next six decades.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not pointing out any of this in order to garner sympathy for Communism. I think that it's terrible and that the Western Allies probably did the right thing at the time.

But I do think that it's very interesting that an event which really happened has been so well censored and forgotten.

This is why I am asking suspicious questions about whether or not the Allies declared war on the Soviets after they attacked Poland.

In any case, this is all very off-topic. I don't know what the rules are around here about bringing up topics which are irrelevant to the original intent of the thread, and if this is a big no-no, then I apologize.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by P1234567890

You're probably right, but this means that Britain and France did not live up to their treaty with Poland, at least not in spirit.

No they did not live up to there treaty at all. Did they invade Germany or come to the aid of the Polish?

No...

Originally Posted by P1234567890

It's true: The U.S. invaded the Soviet Union after World War I. It was done in the context of the Russian Civil War. The Western Allies fought alongside the 'White Russians' against the Bolsheviks.

Weird History 101 - Google Book Search

See page 267.

Here is another good reference: Russian Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And another: Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that the U.S. and Britain sent so many troops deep into Russia in order to fight against Communism is one of the main reasons why the Communists were so paranoid about the West for the next six decades.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not pointing out any of this in order to garner sympathy for Communism. I think that it's terrible and that the Western Allies probably did the right thing at the time.

But I do think that it's very interesting that an event which really happened has been so well censored and forgotten.

This is why I am asking suspicious questions about whether or not the Allies declared war on the Soviets after they attacked Poland.

In any case, this is all very off-topic. I don't know what the rules are around here about bringing up topics which are irrelevant to the original intent of the thread, and if this is a big no-no, then I apologize.

Yes I know. If you go back and read my post you will see that I said:

Edit: I realize now what you are talking about

And then go and read what I posted underneath that and you will see that I posted the same information that you just posted.

[Juha]

I haven’t participated this poll because it’s very difficult to say who was the best. But what a heck, I voted W/O Illu Juutilainen because I know he had many good qualities.

Cons: He seemed not to be very reliable claimer.

Pros: Many Finnish pilots testified that he had very good situational awareness.
He was a very good pilot
He was a good shot
He shot done a quite a lot enemy planes even if not over 90, not even 70.
He was a good teacher in air tactics and in air combat in general and was always ready to give advises to others and was able give them in humorous and easily remembered ways
His plane was never hit in his numerous air combats
His many times rather harsh leg pulling and practical jokes made probably good on his units morale during the long war.
He was also a very good recon pilot.

And I have one more candidate to the poll list, Captain Helmut Lipfert, 203 kills, because

He seemed to be a reliable claimer
He was a good teacher, liked by his men and by those Hungarian and Romanians he taught.
And he wrote a very good memories

Juha

[P1234567890]

Wow, isn't it funny how people love to vote patriotically... Come on, you can't *seriously* think