Bf-109F-4 and a bleak time for RAF

[Glider]

I was commenting on an earlier post from Sgt Pappy who implied the Germans were not trying their hardest. I assume you agree with my statement.

[Juha]

I must say I disagree. There are some studies, even if there is disagreement on their validity, which imply that in average in a rifle squad 1-2 men do most of the fighting, majority do their duty but not much above that and 1-2 men concentrate to survive. Also the fact that in military statutes there are hard sanctions to those who disregard their duties during war implies that it isn’t unknown phenomenon. IMHO one of main purposes of military discipline is to try to suppress man’s natural instinct to try to survive.

Juha

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Juha

I must say I disagree. There are some studies, even if there is disagreement on their validity, which imply that in average in a rifle squad 1-2 men do most of the fighting, majority do their duty but not much above that and 1-2 men concentrate to survive. Also the fact that in military statutes there are hard sanctions to those who disregard their duties during war implies that it isn’t unknown phenomenon. IMHO one of main purposes of military discipline is to try to suppress man’s natural instinct to try to survive.

Juha

I see where you are coming from and wouldn't disagree with the statement iro land battles. However, we are talking about pilots and unless you run, there is no place to hide.

[Juha]

Hello Glider
I agree that You are partly right, airmen were selected group but even RAF had their LMF cases. Now I think that many of LMF cases had done their outmost but the circumstances were just too much for them. But I would be surprised if among the LMF cases there were no one who had simply decided that dam the disgrace I’d opt out and survive. And not all pilots press on regardless. But I who had only served in a peacetime conscript army would not judge them. To almost everyone there are limits of psychological endurance and those varied between individuals.

Even in air one can turn away a little earlier or fly a little bit higher and so on.

This has been a bit off topic but we might come back to topic by thinking why LW failed to neutralize Malta in early Oct. 42. The reason wasn’t technical, Bf 109G-2/-4 and F-4 were better than Spit VC in fighter vs fighter combat and Macchi 202 wasn’t a bad fighter either. That should have compensated the weak defensive firepower of Ju 88A. I doubt that it was tactical because LW’s fighter tactics were usually very good. Park was excellent defensive fighter commander but still I think that an important factor in this failure was that the Germans didn’t know what will happen a month later ie they didn’t know that that was their last chance to neutralize Malta and that a month latter it would be strategically even more important base for Allied anti-shipping and recon planes and that their brothers-in-arms in Tunis would have to pay such a price for their failure. Of course they probably would not have imagined that their Führer would try to keep Tunis much too long and turn a defeat to a catastrophe. To British the situation was clear, the usual situation of underdog.

[Glider]

When your fighting in the air the pilots are fighting for the here and now, to sum up one quote they wanted to do their job and get back in one piece. Doing their job involved fighting the Spits defending Malta and destroying them. The quicker they could do it the quicker the Battle for Malta would be over and the safer they would be.
It doesn't make any sense to me to pace myself and go for a battle in the longer period. In almost any kind of battle, one important factor is to overwhelm the enemy and destroy them. This is particually important in a situation like Malta where you have the British on the defensive, spare parts are hard if not impossible to come by, workshops have been destroyed, there are no refueling facilities and it takes a fair amount of time to turn a plane around. Plus of course there are no reserves, everything that can fly must fight.
Germany had all these advantages, the reserves, spare parts, workshops, numbers, bombers, initiative, secure bases (occaisional raids but nothing like those endured on Malta) and still failed to destroy the Maltese defences. The question is why?
As fara as I can see Malta only had two adantages. Park who was probably the best defensive fighter commander of the war, and a surplus of pilots. As a result off the aircraft losses on the ground as well as in the air the pilots may have been fresher, despite the poor food and heavy bombing.

You will have twigged by now that I don't believe the Spit V to be any worse than the F4, not any better but a fair match. The Macchi 202 performance wise, didn't have to apologise to either of the other planes (why didn't they give it 2 x 20) it wwas just underarmed
My argument is that if the 109 was better than the Spit V then with all the other disadvantages then Malta would have fallen, it didn't fall and the spit couldn't have been any worse than the 109..

The only reason that I can see why the Germans failed is due to poor planning and poor tactics. Ju88's can fly across the whole island in minutes there was no reason for the German bombers to suffer the losses they did unless the planning and tactics employed were innadaquate.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Juha

IMHO one of main purposes of military discipline is to try to suppress man’s natural instinct to try to survive.

Juha

No military discipline is in place so that a soldier remains professional and does his duty and follows orders. It is not there to suppress his natural instinct to survive. AS a matter of fact, soldiers are tought and trained to do everything they can to survive.

I know I was a soldier until just recently...

[Chingachgook]

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[Chingachgook]

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[Juha]

Hello Adler
I still disagree, IMHO dicipline is there for forcing those who are not too enthusiastic to obey orders even if they are dangerous for individual's survival and training is there to make soldiers able to do their duties and to increase their chances to survive when doing the job. IMHO soldiers do risky things for many reasons, out of patriotism, out of sense of duty, out of group solidarity, out of showing their mates that they can do it etc but dicipline is there in case if some of soldiers in certain circumstances in certain time begin to feel that enough is enough.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Chingachgook

Glider, Parks was not at Malta until October (maybe September). He came after the Spits got the upper hand. Parks had not embraced good flight level tactics yet (if my poor memory serves - it rarely does). I think he was still stuck on vic formations over the channel before he went to Malta.
One good thing about Parks going to Malta is that he went on the offensive - sending raids to hit LW and Italians on Sicily.

I have to admit that you are correct about the timin of Parks arrival, my error. That reduced the davantages to the British to only one, the questionable one about having fresher pilots.

[Juha]

Glider
there isn't much disagreement between us on this. Even if IMHO 109F-4 and G were better than Spit VC in fighter vs fighter combat, IMHO the difference wasn't great and so the pilot skills, tactical situation and tactics used were more important factors to outcome than the differences between the types.

Juha

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Juha

Hello Adler
I still disagree, IMHO dicipline is there for forcing those who are not too enthusiastic to obey orders even if they are dangerous for individual's survival and training is there to make soldiers able to do their duties and to increase their chances to survive when doing the job. IMHO soldiers do risky things for many reasons, out of patriotism, out of sense of duty, out of group solidarity, out of showing their mates that they can do it etc but dicipline is there in case if some of soldiers in certain circumstances in certain time begin to feel that enough is enough.

I disagree with you because our army is an all volunteer army. You do your duty because you want to.

[Chingachgook]

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