BOB: Why Are There Differences? - Aircraft of World War II

Njaco · 02-20-2007, 10:38 AM

After reading numerous books and visiting several sites related to the Battle of Britain, I've noticed that there is a discrepancy about what the aircraft losses for each side per day are. Toliver would say (as an example) that 40 British aircraft were lost on sept 5 while the BOB website says 35, another book says 41, etc, etc. Are they counting non-action losses as well? I'm doing some research on the BOB and this gets confusing with what would be reliable sources. Any answers?

Thanks

FLYBOYJ · 02-20-2007, 11:28 AM

It's a matter of where writers get their sources from. Also some writers may include non-combat losses but don't mention it in their books.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 02-20-2007, 01:45 PM

And because claims really cant be claimed for the most part. Did that come out right?

In other words all sides overclaimed.

Wespe · 02-20-2007, 02:23 PM

I have seen many of this particular thread in other forums.

If one has a clear picture of what happend up in the air during the plane encounters, one will understand why it is more or less impossible for the agressor to determin if a plane was actually shot down (a kill - exploding right in front of you) or dragging smoke and going down - not knowing if the poor fellow crashed or still made it out. Or whilst going down in smoke being shot down (exploded in front of the second attacker) or again making still a landing.
In many of these cases pilots would in total overclaim, without even knowing about it.
But I would say there is one every clear indication about losses during the BoB.

Take the respective national archives for KIA or MIA and Pow and one will know exactly how many pilots and planes where lost. These records also show who was a Pilot (Flugzeugfuehrer) or just a crew man (Flieger personal, Bordschuetze etc.)
Probably nobody has undertaken this painstaking task, because any book which talks about Kills, and keeps the myth about the BoB sells a lot better.

According to the British archives about 557 Pilots are registered as KIA,MIA and PoW from 10th of July till 30th of October. So does this figure contribute any significance to what is called a battle ?

Wespe

Njaco · 02-20-2007, 05:40 PM

And I understand about archives and research but why so many authors with supposed access to these records still seem to give conflicting results. I would think that after 60 years and with such a prominent battle this little problem would be ironed out. I don't have access to alot of these libraries and my own is a bit lacking -don't have $300 for Fighters Over Tunisia-but it just bugs me alittle.

*one will understand why it is more or less impossible for the agressor to determin if a plane was actually shot down*

I definately take that into consideration - fully understand. I'm just surprised after all these years something isn't more concrete.

Jabo · 02-21-2007, 11:34 AM

Hi Wespe,

As you can see, I am new on this Forum.

I would fully agree to your statement regarding the BoB. Figures alone are just not interesting enough to be read.

Jabo

Njaco · 02-21-2007, 11:46 AM

Gutten Tag, Jabo

Thats my point. I would think if you're going to build perception, such as a recreation of a battle, some of the little things must be made solid first. Loss figures can fluctuate, I understand, but without a solid starting point, how does one dig deeper into what happened. Maybe I'm taking myself too serious but when I try to disect minor engagements during a certain day its hard to figure out who shot who, when, where, etc. even with combat reports, etc. If There were five Spits brought down DEFINATE, and six claims, you can work from that. But I can't even get a specific number from all the sources I've seen. Confusing and disappointing. Maybe its the Fermat problem of WWII.

Jabo · 02-21-2007, 12:33 PM

Hi there Njaco,

well I think Wespe already pointed it out, the only thing one could go for are the acctual KIA/MIA/POW stats on behalf of pilots and crewman.
If for example: a Lufftwaffe plane gets (shot down-e.g. trailing smoke) the English pilot would have recorded a kill.
However the German pilot managed to land, gets into a new plane, takes off four hours later and run's into the same English pilot (shots down the Spit - trailing smoke) but the English guy still gets down to his Base.

The record for this day would show: 1 Bf-109 down, 1 Spit down
The record on base would show 1 Bf-109 damaged, 1 Spit damaged

So in total: 2 planes down and 2 planes damaged
And the story continious: where the damaged planes to be repared? So lets say the Bf-109 was a wreck beyond repair.
Later some author will find out, that on that day, 1 Bf-109 was shot down(according to British records) and according to German records 1 Bf-109 had to be scrapped on that particular day.

So to the author it will be 2 Bf-109 destroyed on that day. Another author will change the destroyed to 2 Bf-109 shot down.

Confusing eh? that is why I agree with Wespe; count the KIA/MIA and PoW
and if the pilot was a PoW he can be counted as a loss just as well.

Jabo

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 02-21-2007, 01:01 PM

Wespe is Jabo....

Gigs up man!

Hunter368 · 02-21-2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Wespe is Jabo....

Gigs up man!

Mmmm we have not had a newbie roasted in a while. Chris or Dan going to do it?

Erich · 02-21-2007, 01:11 PM

Jabo or Wespe or ? whomever you are respond to the moderators privates at once or you will suffer the wrath of the moderating team !!

Erich ~

Hunter368 · 02-21-2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

Jabo or Wespe or ? whomever you are respond to the moderators privates at once or you will suffer the wrath of the moderating team !!

Erich ~

LOL Erich is mad now to. LOL

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 02-21-2007, 01:23 PM

Well Wespe is going to get banned soon as well, if he does not explain himself...

Hunter368 · 02-21-2007, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Well Wespe is going to get banned soon as well, if he does not explain himself...

Good. Makes me laugh when I see newbies come here and try and play us for fools. I love best when they come here BS about their military back grounds and you flush them out. I love that. Funny as hell watching it happen from post to post.

Morai_Milo · 02-21-2007, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

Jabo or Wespe or ? whomever you are respond to the moderators privates at once or you will suffer the wrath of the moderating team !!

Erich ~

I did not know this was a place of that kind.

The only person that I allow to respond to my privates is the wife.

02-20-2007, 10:38 AM	#1
Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: South Jersey, United States Posts: 10,184	BOB: Why Are There Differences? After reading numerous books and visiting several sites related to the Battle of Britain, I've noticed that there is a discrepancy about what the aircraft losses for each side per day are. Toliver would say (as an example) that 40 British aircraft were lost on sept 5 while the BOB website says 35, another book says 41, etc, etc. Are they counting non-action losses as well? I'm doing some research on the BOB and this gets confusing with what would be reliable sources. Any answers? Thanks

02-20-2007, 11:28 AM	#2
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 15,981	It's a matter of where writers get their sources from. Also some writers may include non-combat losses but don't mention it in their books. __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

02-20-2007, 01:45 PM	#3
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,011	And because claims really cant be claimed for the most part. Did that come out right? In other words all sides overclaimed. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

02-20-2007, 05:40 PM	#5
Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: South Jersey, United States Posts: 10,184	Agreed. And I understand about archives and research but why so many authors with supposed access to these records still seem to give conflicting results. I would think that after 60 years and with such a prominent battle this little problem would be ironed out. I don't have access to alot of these libraries and my own is a bit lacking -don't have $300 for Fighters Over Tunisia-but it just bugs me alittle. one will understand why it is more or less impossible for the agressor to determin if a plane was actually shot down I definately take that into consideration - fully understand. I'm just surprised after all these years something isn't more concrete.

02-21-2007, 01:01 PM	#9
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,011	Wespe is Jabo.... Gigs up man! __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

02-21-2007, 11:46 AM	#7
Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: South Jersey, United States Posts: 10,184	Gutten Tag, Jabo Thats my point. I would think if you're going to build perception, such as a recreation of a battle, some of the little things must be made solid first. Loss figures can fluctuate, I understand, but without a solid starting point, how does one dig deeper into what happened. Maybe I'm taking myself too serious but when I try to disect minor engagements during a certain day its hard to figure out who shot who, when, where, etc. even with combat reports, etc. If There were five Spits brought down DEFINATE, and six claims, you can work from that. But I can't even get a specific number from all the sources I've seen. Confusing and disappointing. Maybe its the Fermat problem of WWII.

02-21-2007, 01:11 PM	#11
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,707	Jabo or Wespe or ? whomever you are respond to the moderators privates at once or you will suffer the wrath of the moderating team !! Erich ~ __________________ Rip it up !

02-21-2007, 01:23 PM	#13
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,011	Well Wespe is going to get banned soon as well, if he does not explain himself... __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

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