Bomber v Bomber

Wildcat · 02-06-2006, 06:54 AM

Found this page which has pics of a Jap Tabby and a Ki-45 being shot down by a USAAF B-24.
http://www.oldcmp.net/lib1.html#tabby

Gnomey · 02-06-2006, 07:52 AM

Good find Wildcat, good pics on that site. Quite a story about that Sunderland, what a fight they went with, the Germans won't of been expecting that.

Jabberwocky · 02-06-2006, 08:28 AM

IIRC that Sunderland has some local modifications, like doubling all the single guns and adding extra MG positions in the galley. It certainly came as a suprise to the crews of the Ju-88s though. The Germans ended up nicknaming the Sunderland the 'Flying Porcupine' because of the amount of defensive armament that the Brits put (or modded) onto it.

KraziKanuK · 02-06-2006, 08:35 AM

To be picky, that Sunderland/Ju88 was not a pure bomber vs bomber engagement since the 88s were the fighter version.

R Leonard · 02-06-2006, 10:44 AM

There were other encounters with "fighter" Ju 88s as well as some others:

Gleaned from various USN operational histories . . .

1 Aug 1943 - A PBY from VP-63 on patrol in the Bay of Biscay was attacked by eight Ju 88s. Surviving crew claimed two of the attackers shot down and one damaged. This was the first aerial combat between U.S. Naval Aviation and the Luftwaffe. German records show only one of the Germans was actually shot down, a Ju 88C-6, Werk No. 360118, from 13/KG40. The PBY was also shot down in this encounter. The pilot and two crewmembers were rescued at sea.

2 Sep 1943 - A PB4Y from VB-103 failed to return. It is believed the aircraft fell victim to Ju-88 fighter-bombers.

4 Sep 1943 - A PB4Y from VB-103 on patrol over the Bay of Biscay was intercepted by six Ju 88s. In the ensuing action, one Ju 88 was shot down (a Ju-88C-6 Werk No. 360382 from 13/KG40). The PB4Y was forced to ditch from fire and other damage. The crew safely exited the wreck and some 36 hours later reached the English coast in their life raft. Two other RAF patrol bombers out of Dunkeswell were also shot down by intercepting Luftwaffe aircraft on this date.

16 Sep 1943 - A VB-103 PB4Y was intercepted while on patrol, but was able to return to base without casualties. There were no known Luftwaffe losses in this action.

18 Sep 1943 - Still another VB-103 PB4Y got in a gunfight with Ju 88s, but the neither side was able to bring down their adversaries. The PB4Y returned to base with no casualties and minimal damage.

8 Nov 1943 - A PB4Y from VB-110 failed to return from a Bay of Biscay patrol. Another patrol plane reported receiving a message from an unidentified aircraft that it was under attack followed by an SOS. Nothing else was heard and this was the only plane that failed to return on that date. Aircraft and crew were listed as missing in action and presumed lost.

9 Nov 1943 - Another VB-110 plane, this piloted by Lieutenant Joseph P. Kennedy, who would later be killed in an Operation Aphrodite flight, was attacked by what was reported as Me 210s. Kennedy hove into a nearby cloudbank and escaped his attackers.

28 Dec 1943 - On the return leg of a routine Bay of Biscay patrol, a VB-110 PB4Y encountered four He 177s. The PB4Y crew reported severely damaging one of these bombers; when last seen it was headed back towards the French coast with a damaged right engine. German records indicate that an He-177A3, Werk No. 5557, from 11/KG40 was unable to return to base and crashed into the sea. The PB4Y safely returned to Dunkeswell.

14 Feb 1944 - A PB4Y from VB-103 on patrol was two Ju 88s. During the encounter the PB4Y crew shot down one of their attackers, a Ju-88C-6 Werk No. 750967, from Stab 1/ZG1, the crew of which was subsequently reported as missing by the Luftwaffe. The PB4Y pilot flew into the cloud cover, but one engine had been knocked out. While attempting to return to Dunkeswell another engine went out and they were forced to ditch. One crewmember went down with the aircraft and another died of injuries. The eight survivors were rescued the next day.

26 Feb 1944 - A PB4Y from VB-105 was attacked by Ju 88s and shot down, with the loss of all hands. A Ju-88C-6, Werk No. 750941, from 3/ZG1 was shot down in this action.

10 Aug 1944 - Another VB-105 PB4Y reportedly encountered a Do 217. In the ensuing exchange of fire the Do 217 was apparently damaged and was observed turning back towards the French coast. No other information available. The PB4Y returned to base.

USN histories are careful to note that the Ju 88s were "fighter/bombers".

Rich

Twitch · 02-06-2006, 06:30 PM

I know a B-26 pilot whose crew destroyed a Mavis in bomber to bomber combat.

Wildcat · 02-06-2006, 07:54 PM

Great info Leonard!

Glider · 02-06-2006, 07:55 PM

Its interesting to note that a number of RAF B24's had the twin 50 in the rear replaced by quad 3.3 in a Bolton Paul turret. Does anyone have any idea as to why this was done?

the lancaster kicks ass · 02-08-2006, 02:27 AM

at the time we were shitting out .303 ammo, but .50cal guns and ammo were like gold dust throughout the british empire, mostly because we didn't really like the .50cal

Twitch · 02-08-2006, 12:10 PM

A Yank Spitfire pilot I know used to tell me about how the .303s humorously bounced harmlessly off of FW 190 plating.

FLYBOYJ · 02-08-2006, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twitch

A Yank Spitfire pilot I know used to tell me about how the .303s humorously bounced harmlessly off of FW 190 plating.

If it was an Fw 190 F8 or A8 I think tht would be the case with most allied MG rounds....

Twitch · 02-08-2006, 08:43 PM

No that was well before the A8. API fifty cal didn't bounce off.

plan_D · 02-09-2006, 09:07 PM

I hardly think the .303 harmlessly bounced off the Fw-190, unless it was the well armoured types. Spitfire Vs and IXs in the early days of Fw-190 introduction were getting kills against them ... albeit the Spitfire V had to rely a lot on luck ...except the H.F V at low level ...