Buchons, Spits, Bearcats, and a real Pilot

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Il admit I am biased toward the 109 only because it is my favorite plane. Was the 109 the greatest plane since bread and butter? Absolutely not and I will be the first to admit it.

However I still would not make a comparison of the 109 to the Spit based off of flying the Buchon. It handeled differently than the Bf-109. I am going to have to find the magazine artical. I think it is also posted online. It was an interview with a guy who flew both a Buchon and a 109 and it described the differences and the Buchon was for the worse.

[Sarge714]

One thing that is left out in these discussions is stick force. We just did a full computer analysis and the results were surprising. If you leave stick force out, the Spitfire is far superior. When you factor in stick force it has an equalizing effect bringing the performance of different aircraft together.

Plus you need to consider how well the pilot could keep the aircraft near max AoA. The elliptical planform, while efficient, has a very violent stall. To make the Spitfire more manageable they added twist to the wing. Adding twist to the wing reduces the advantage of the elliptical wing. On the other hand the 109’s slats make for a much gentler stall and allow the 109 pilot to hang right on the edge. The downside is the slats add weight where you don’t want it out towards the end of the wings and add an MOI issue to roll the pilot has to deal with.

Last, both aircraft had close to the same roll rate up to 200mph, at which point the roll rate due to stick force for the Spitfire fell off. While the 109E’s roll rate continued up to the mid 240mph’s (mid 250mph’s for the 109F) before falling off.

Factoring in stick force, the 109 could not pull max AoA at high speed, so the e bleed would be low until the speed had slowed enough to pull max AoA region, at which point it would be higher than the Spitfires. But, the Spitfire pilot would be risking a violent stall spin trying to pull lead to get a shot.

As you know, a high time Spitfire pilot would feel where they are in relation to the edge an pull it off, a low time pilot would spin. Same for the 109 pilot with a veteran using the high speed e advantage and knowing when to give up speed for rate of turn, vs a low time pilot that would burn all their e turning with a Spitfire and become a grape for the taking.

Unfortunately, there are currently no retail sim’s that model any of this. With the exception of some unsupported 3rd party mods that add this.

[pbfoot]

I think as the only one with access to both the 109 and the Spit the next time I get the opportunity I'll ask the pilots although I would'nt hold my breath as we are shut down for the winter

[Chingachgook]

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[Chingachgook]

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[Chingachgook]

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[pbfoot]

I usually just listen strange as that might seem

[Soren]

Chingachgook,

Reading your last response to me it is clear that it is not me who is biased, its you. Otherwise you wouldn't have gone on the offensive like that, you're obviously a hardcore Spitfire fan. Now if I were you, being new here and all, I'd cut that tone you've got going rather quickly.

Also before you played with the info on Skip Holm's own website and posted it here, the data you presented is originally for a G-6 NOT a G-2 ! - Making stuff up is also a clear sign of strong bias !

Also what makes YOU believe Hinton flies the 109 regularly ???

And about the Spitfire pilots, read Pierre Clostermann's "The Big Show":

"I tried to fire on a '109' that I spotted in the chaos. Not possible, I couldn't get the correct angle. My plane juddered on the edge of a stall. It was comforting that the Spitfire turned better than the '109'! Certainly at high speed - but not at low speed."

PS: The 109E has triggy slat-functioning, so I'd understand why nobody would want to hirl a 60 year old version of it round in the air for fun.

[Chingachgook]

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[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by Chingachgook

That Smitt is probably the most important warbird flying.
What do you do there?

Whatever they need from digging holes to mowing the rwy ...whatever .....its a 10 minute drive away 2 stop lights

[Chingachgook]

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[Matt308]

:I

[Chingachgook]

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[ndicki]

The Merlin turns in the same direction as the DB601/5.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Bucheron was a bad attempt at copying the Bf-109G. The Spanish were waiting on the DB engines and they never recieved them so they had to install the Merlins and therefore had to redesign the aircraft and all of this including the engine changed the way the aircraft handeled. As I said all along the Bucheron is not a 109.

Good postings there though Chingachgook.