Buchons, Spits, Bearcats, and a real Pilot - Aircraft of World War II

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-22-2006, 01:59 PM

You change eneogh things on an aircraft like they did to the Buchon (which by the way in my opinion are not 109s) you are going to effect performance. I would not make a comparison of the 109 vs Spit based off of Buchon vs. Spit. Just my humble opinion though. I have not flown any of these 3 aircraft.

Soren · 11-22-2006, 02:04 PM

Hinton doesn't fly the 109 regularly, so I wouldn't trust his comments on it. Also he's known to be VERY biased I might add - just the way he reacts when you told about the slats might give you a clue to this.

Also I don't agree with your final assesment, as even Spitfire pilots claimed they couldn't out-turn the 109 at low speed.

PS: the Buchon is HEAVY and draggy comapred to the G-2. Not at all like Hinton explains it.

twoeagles · 11-22-2006, 03:29 PM

Careful - don't confuse turn radius with rate of turn. The smallest radius doesn't equal the fastest turn rate, which is counter-intuitive. A higher speed
higher g turn with plenty of power on is what you try to maintain - if you try for a small radius and chop power, you might get off a quick shot, but your opponent will be on your 6 in short order....

I was offered the chance to fly a Buchon 12 years ago but after a high speed taxi to see how it felt as the tail got light, I shut down and got out. The thing just scared me, and I didn't like anything about how it felt or how small the cockpit was for a 200 pound pilot.

Matt308 · 11-22-2006, 03:37 PM

The Messer cockpit is supersmall. I'm surprised that a 200lb guy could get into it and still function.

FLYBOYJ · 11-22-2006, 03:43 PM

I know Steve Hinton, a great pilot and super nice guy.

Many opinions of modern warbird pilots are going to be a bit slanted for a number of reasons. These restored aircraft are somewhat castrated and are not really flown to their fullest operation capacity (would you want to fling White 14 {ME-109} around like toy when it's worth a few million?). I think history shows us where the performance of these aircraft really stood...

timshatz · 11-22-2006, 05:29 PM

Good point about the Aircraft being castrated Flyboy. Some of the equipment they used in (and needed to) airbattles has been removed (guns, armor plate, ect) making the handling in each one different based just on those facts alone. Plus, flying one of an aircraft wouldn't make you an expert on that aircraft. They're all quirky in their own way. Need lots of time in different aircraft (and different Marks or Models) to really know them.

And in WW2 birds, that must make you very rich or very, very good. IMO

Chingachgook · 11-22-2006, 10:06 PM

Chingachgook · 11-22-2006, 10:27 PM

FLYBOYJ · 11-23-2006, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chingachgook

We do that in FA game all of the time (ducking!).

I could tell you we've had many hours here debating FA games, sims and what have you - A game (or sim) is not a substitute for judging actual performance and pilot skill (especially for those who never flown a real aircraft)

As far as Hinton flying the Buchon regularly? No he doesn't and I know that as fact. I could tell you Steve will be biased based on the performance of the aircraft he has flown in their restored operating state and as earlier mentioned many warbirds flown around Chino have many anomalies that will never bring them up to the level of performance when they were new...

BTW I will actually be there (Chino) on Friday - If I have time I'll go by the museum and see if Steve is in town...

Chingachgook · 11-23-2006, 01:29 AM

FLYBOYJ · 11-23-2006, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chingachgook

Flyboy,
Spare me the lecture on sims please. I have flown enough to know what real flying is.

Well I'm glad since you keep bringing it up - there are some who don't (or won't) accept the difference. Being rather new here I'm glad to see you're letting your feeling known on this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chingachgook

Ask him about the Buchon - I am sure you will get a good answer. BTW, He has not flown them recently, but other than maybe Brown and Holm I'd put money on the fact that he has more hours on them than anyone else in US.

Agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chingachgook

Hintons' Buchon is bent - a gear leg never locked down in England and he cracked it up landing. They brought it back. Still sitting in parts.

If I see him I'll ask him about it. I'll be there all day Friday and maybe Saturday morning...

Chingachgook · 11-23-2006, 02:06 AM

Chingachgook · 11-23-2006, 02:12 AM

FLYBOYJ · 11-23-2006, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chingachgook

sorry flyboy - saw your next post AFTER I posted the above - I was too harsh on my reply.

No sweat - and you'll never see me or any of the other pilots on this board browbeating the non-pilots (unless they think they really know how to fly say a P-51 after flying sims for a year).

It's good you're reading the past posts - you'll get a feel of the membership here (and their biases

)

11-22-2006, 01:52 PM	#1
Chingachgook Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 215	Buchons, Spits, Bearcats, and a real Pilot X Last edited by Chingachgook; 01-29-2007 at 09:33 PM.

11-22-2006, 01:59 PM	#2
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,152	You change eneogh things on an aircraft like they did to the Buchon (which by the way in my opinion are not 109s) you are going to effect performance. I would not make a comparison of the 109 vs Spit based off of Buchon vs. Spit. Just my humble opinion though. I have not flown any of these 3 aircraft. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

11-22-2006, 02:04 PM	#3
Soren Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,107	Hinton doesn't fly the 109 regularly, so I wouldn't trust his comments on it. Also he's known to be VERY biased I might add - just the way he reacts when you told about the slats might give you a clue to this. Also I don't agree with your final assesment, as even Spitfire pilots claimed they couldn't out-turn the 109 at low speed. PS: the Buchon is HEAVY and draggy comapred to the G-2. Not at all like Hinton explains it. __________________ It was like being pushed by an Angel! - Adolf Galland I'm an educated engineer, so I love being technical and appraising of great inventions. So if you think I am being biased about something: Tell me! Then you'll probably find out that I am not

11-22-2006, 03:37 PM	#5
Matt308 aka Dickcheese Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Washington State Posts: 13,382	The Messer cockpit is supersmall. I'm surprised that a 200lb guy could get into it and still function. __________________ "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the [U.S.] Marines don't have that problem." -- Ronald Reagan Master of Duplicate Posts

11-22-2006, 03:43 PM	#6
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,049	I know Steve Hinton, a great pilot and super nice guy. Many opinions of modern warbird pilots are going to be a bit slanted for a number of reasons. These restored aircraft are somewhat castrated and are not really flown to their fullest operation capacity (would you want to fling White 14 {ME-109} around like toy when it's worth a few million?). I think history shows us where the performance of these aircraft really stood... __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

11-22-2006, 03:29 PM	#4
twoeagles Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chambersburg Posts: 665	Careful - don't confuse turn radius with rate of turn. The smallest radius doesn't equal the fastest turn rate, which is counter-intuitive. A higher speed higher g turn with plenty of power on is what you try to maintain - if you try for a small radius and chop power, you might get off a quick shot, but your opponent will be on your 6 in short order.... I was offered the chance to fly a Buchon 12 years ago but after a high speed taxi to see how it felt as the tail got light, I shut down and got out. The thing just scared me, and I didn't like anything about how it felt or how small the cockpit was for a 200 pound pilot.

11-22-2006, 05:29 PM	#7
timshatz Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa Posts: 3,446	Good point about the Aircraft being castrated Flyboy. Some of the equipment they used in (and needed to) airbattles has been removed (guns, armor plate, ect) making the handling in each one different based just on those facts alone. Plus, flying one of an aircraft wouldn't make you an expert on that aircraft. They're all quirky in their own way. Need lots of time in different aircraft (and different Marks or Models) to really know them. And in WW2 birds, that must make you very rich or very, very good. IMO

11-22-2006, 10:06 PM	#8
Chingachgook Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 215	X Last edited by Chingachgook; 01-29-2007 at 09:57 PM.

11-22-2006, 10:27 PM	#9
Chingachgook Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 215	X Last edited by Chingachgook; 01-29-2007 at 09:57 PM.

11-23-2006, 01:29 AM	#11
Chingachgook Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 215	X Last edited by Chingachgook; 01-29-2007 at 09:58 PM.

11-23-2006, 02:06 AM	#13
Chingachgook Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 215	X Last edited by Chingachgook; 01-29-2007 at 09:59 PM.

11-23-2006, 02:12 AM	#14
Chingachgook Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 215	X Last edited by Chingachgook; 01-29-2007 at 09:59 PM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode