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Thread: Capt. Eric Brown: Flight Test God or Biased Meathead

  1. #31
    Senior Member The Basket's Avatar
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    Well Brown was a test pilot so he took safety into account.

    But again we are talking about the 109. Brown said some things about it and therefore he is wrong.

    He liked a lot of the German aircraft he flew...even some obsolete types...but he didn't blow his load over the 109. He wasn't the only UK pilot who didn't like it.


  2. #32
    Senior Member Juha's Avatar
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    Now Brown himself wrote that his experience with 109G was limited even if it included simulated dogfight and wrote that his opinion might have different if he had flown it extensively in combat.

    KrazyKraut, are you sure that aces like Kittel, Priller, Wurmheller, Thyben and Romm prefered 109 over 190? I doubt that. As you wrote, opinions differ.

    Syscom3
    Brown was trained fighter pilot and had flown much in fighters like Gauntlet, Gladiator, Wildcat, Spitfire/Seafire, Firefly, Sea Fyry, Vampire and Sea Hawk. Also at least Swordfish and Barracuda. And reasonable flying time at least Fw 189 and 190, DH 108 Swallow, Avro Tudor and Mosquito to name a few.

    One with 500 combat flying in say Fw 190 could probably be better to analyze its behaviour in combat but was he better to compare it with many other fighters?

    I think that Bill's father was well able to compare P-51 and Fw 190D and able to compare P-51, Spitfire, Fw 190D and 109K but was he able to compare Macchi MC 202, Dewoitine D.520 and Hurricane? In P-51 vs Fw 190D comprasition I would appraise more Bill's father's opinion but in Wildcat vs Seafire Brown's.

    Juha

  3. #33
    Senior Member The Basket's Avatar
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    That is what I is saying.

    Judging his career on a very limited aspect of his life.

  4. #34
    Senior Member drgondog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juha View Post
    Now Brown himself wrote that his experience with 109G was limited even if it included simulated dogfight and wrote that his opinion might have different if he had flown it extensively in combat.

    KrazyKraut, are you sure that aces like Kittel, Priller, Wurmheller, Thyben and Romm prefered 109 over 190? I doubt that. As you wrote, opinions differ.

    Syscom3
    Brown was trained fighter pilot and had flown much in fighters like Gauntlet, Gladiator, Wildcat, Spitfire/Seafire, Firefly, Sea Fyry, Vampire and Sea Hawk. Also at least Swordfish and Barracuda. And reasonable flying time at least Fw 189 and 190, DH 108 Swallow, Avro Tudor and Mosquito to name a few.

    One with 500 combat flying in say Fw 190 could probably be better to analyze its behaviour in combat but was he better to compare it with many other fighters?

    I think that Bill's father was well able to compare P-51 and Fw 190D and able to compare P-51, Spitfire, Fw 190D and 109K but was he able to compare Macchi MC 202, Dewoitine D.520 and Hurricane? In P-51 vs Fw 190D comprasition I would appraise more Bill's father's opinion but in Wildcat vs Seafire Brown's.

    Juha
    I agree everything you say.

    I would add that my father would never have positioned himself as a 109 or Fw 190D 'expert' on the basis of the hours he flew in them at Gablingen after the war. He did have the ability to fly them against the late model 51D flown by very skilled pilots (Elder and Hovde) but who knows what actual condition both ships were in relative to overhauls and specs?

    I wonder if he would even consider himself an 'expert' in Mustangs with over 600 hours in them including post war and Korea? He would have considered Bob Hoover as the 'measuring stick' for that standard.

    Expert could be in the eye of the beholder..

  5. #35
    Senior Member Juha's Avatar
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    Hello Bill
    Now my point partly was that your father with a good deal of combat flying in P-51s and an ace in it and with reasonable amount in Fw190D in simulated dogfights against P-51s was probably a better judge on those two a/c than Brown who had no combat time in P-51 and surely much less flying time in it and in all probably less simulated dogfight time in Fw 190 even if he might have had nearly as much stick time in Fw 190 even if I doubt that. And also IMHO your father was probably better judge on those two a/c than for ex. Hoover just because Hoover was “too good” P-51 jockey without probably same sort of intimacy with Fw 190D than with P-51. But this is hair splitting in my part.

    Juha

  6. #36
    Senior Member drgondog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juha View Post
    Hello Bill
    Now my point partly was that your father with a good deal of combat flying in P-51s and an ace in it and with reasonable amount in Fw190D in simulated dogfights against P-51s was probably a better judge on those two a/c than Brown who had no combat time in P-51 and surely much less flying time in it and in all probably less simulated dogfight time in Fw 190 even if he might have had nearly as much stick time in Fw 190 even if I doubt that. And also IMHO your father was probably better judge on those two a/c than for ex. Hoover just because Hoover was “too good” P-51 jockey without probably same sort of intimacy with Fw 190D than with P-51. But this is hair splitting in my part.

    Juha
    Lol - I surrender

  7. #37
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    "A very good aeroplane indeed"-Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt308 View Post
    Okay all you turds that destroy beloved airplane threads with your unending banter about the illustrious Mr. Brown...
    Never my intention Matt, simply wished to share with you an appraisal of the Tigercat by Brown, which I finally found today...

    Interesting end piece. He flew a modified F7F-2N at the Naval Air Test Centre at Patuxent River, to evaluate the supine pilot position with the cockpit fitted with a periscope.



    Also found his DeHavilland DH-103 Hornet report and the controversial(?) Corsair article...


  8. #38
    Senior Member kool kitty89's Avatar
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    Are you going to post the rest of those articles or just taunt us with the covers.
    Last edited by kool kitty89; 09-06-2008 at 08:11 PM.

  9. #39
    Senior Member pbfoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    Are you going to post the rest of those articles or just taunt us with the covers.
    I've read most of them , he is really vey good at what he does , but there are many just as good

  10. #40
    Banned Soren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangilder View Post
    I think like any test pilot, he has his good and bad points. As with any pilot, personal bias is going to enter the equation. If you have only one sample of an aircraft to test, and it has issues with fuel, or has been a crashed aircraft that has been patched together, that information should enter into the equation as a sub-par aircraft example.

    Additionally, when testing enemy aircraft during wartime conditions, there may not be anyone who has trained and flown the aircraft in combat to understand the nuances of the airplane itself and to explain them. This is probably more true with German aircraft as they were quite good at technical innovation.

    It is much easier to fly an aircraft to it's full capabilities when you have access to what the engineers say the limitations and capabilities are. Without that information, test data may not be complete as there are variables that may not be known at the time of tests.

    I have a great respect for his wartime deeds as an RAF pilot. He certainly has flown a number of aircraft. But you cannot base any argument on the opinion of one source. Anyone who has ever worked in a test environment knows that a single test will not provide reliable data. You need at least three sets of results to have any chance of reliable test data. When working with numbers and empirical data, three tests run by the same person will provide good data. When working with variables that are subjective, you needs at least three different testers.
    Excellent post Evan, I agree.

  11. #41
    Banned Soren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drgondog View Post
    I agree everything you say.

    I would add that my father would never have positioned himself as a 109 or Fw 190D 'expert' on the basis of the hours he flew in them at Gablingen after the war. He did have the ability to fly them against the late model 51D flown by very skilled pilots (Elder and Hovde) but who knows what actual condition both ships were in relative to overhauls and specs?

    I wonder if he would even consider himself an 'expert' in Mustangs with over 600 hours in them including post war and Korea? He would have considered Bob Hoover as the 'measuring stick' for that standard.

    Expert could be in the eye of the beholder..
    IIRC your father said that the Fw-190 was slightly better in the horizontal than the P-51 ? If so it agrees completely with other aces have said and all the sensible stuff I've read on the subject. But seeing that you'd have to be accustomed to an a/c before you can get the max out of it your father must have been quite familiar with the Fw-190 ? How many hours did he fly it ?

    Anyhow may he rest in peace with all the other aces out there

  12. #42
    Senior Member Krabat42's Avatar
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    Hey Graeme,

    Could you send me scans of these articles by email? I expect they are to large to be posted here.

    Krabat
    "The way they wrap themselves in the flag and pretend to be the inheritors of a grand democratic tradition. While they're really alchemists, turning public trust into gold." ("Civil Disobedience", Joe Haldeman)

  13. #43
    Senior Member drgondog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soren View Post
    IIRC your father said that the Fw-190 was slightly better in the horizontal than the P-51 ? If so it agrees completely with other aces have said and all the sensible stuff I've read on the subject. But seeing that you'd have to be accustomed to an a/c before you can get the max out of it your father must have been quite familiar with the Fw-190 ? How many hours did he fly it ?

    Anyhow may he rest in peace with all the other aces out there
    Soren - he had ~ 25 hours in it, liked the airplane and said he could easily take it into combat. Interestingly enough he had just a little more than 50hrs in the Mustang by the time he had 3 air scores - two over 109s plus a probable and one Ju 87.

    He was regarded by the ones that flew with him as one of the best pilots they flew with...

    I would have to believe someone like Willi R. would be able to extract more from the 190D, but reminded that dad also defeated the 190D flown by the other senior pilots in his 51D when they swapped out.

    Soren - the problem is that the experiences weren't under serious test and flight test profiles so the judgements are subjective and falls largely back to pilot versus pilot skill.

    All I know is that he had enormous respect for the pilots and a/c he flew with and against. He may have been cocky, but it would only be discernable in rare circumstances. He was a very modest man.

    There are several good observations by Bud Fortier on my father in his (Fortier's) book "An Ace of the Eighth"...

    Thanks for the sentiments. I miss him.

  14. #44
    Senior Member fly boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt308 View Post
    Okay all you turds that destroy beloved airplane threads with your unending banter about the illustrious Mr. Brown... here is your chance to piss and moan in relative comfort about whether Eric is a biased buffoon whose only support can be airplanes British or if Eric was so bloody brilliant in his analyses that his conclusions are irrefutable.

    May you argue until your bladders burst. Just stay outta my threads.
    ok then

  15. #45
    Banned Soren's Avatar
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    I would have to believe someone like Willi R. would be able to extract more from the 190D, but reminded that dad also defeated the 190D flown by the other senior pilots in his 51D when they swapped out.
    Did your father fly against senior German pilots post war ? Or did you mean senior -51 pilots who took the 190 out for a spin ?

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