Captured He 178 at Wright Field?!?

[kool kitty89]

Yes the whole thing seems wrong.

And there was also considerable experience and data from GE's turbocharger development that aided their jet development. (in fact GE had been working on some paper designs of turbojets based on their turbocharger designs, a major considerstion being the combustion stage and its viability)

And of course GE had their own axial designs (TG-100 turboprop becoming TG-180 jet, becoming J35) in development along side the Whittle dirived engines. And the NACA jet program that restarted in '41-42 eventually led to Westinghouse developing the X19A which was the first indiginous American jet engine to run (March 1943) the further 19B would become the J30.


EnginesUSA

[A4K]

Definitely sounds like a load of crap. One thing though, does anyone know the origin of the reports regarding the destruction of the He 178 in the Berlin museum? I've always read that too, but if it's based on Allied information, it might not be the case.

[MONDARIZ]

I'm sure they didn't bomb the museum specifically, but that the museum was hit during an air raid, so there might not be any mention of it in allied reports.

But i found this:

"The aeroplane motor collection of which parts are exhibited in Cracow The largest aviation museum in the world was once situated in Berlin, which is largely unknown today. The "Deutsche Luftfahrtsammlung" (German Aviation Collection) was in Alt-Moabit Street near Lehrter Station, housing more than 120 planes, 200 engines, pictures, models, cups and many other things. When Berlin became more and more threatened with bombing raids by the allies, a plan was developed to transfer this museum. Fritz Petereit, who was born in Treptow on the Rega river, an employee at the airport's society was commissioned to plan the transfer. Due to his origins he was convinced that Pomerania was one of the safest areas in the German Reich. Thus, in June and July 1943 the museum was evacuated to a great extent and everything was shifted either by train or trucks to safe places. Petereit remembered in this context transportations to Treptow, where three or four aeroplanes were stored in the pottery Ernst Bordt of Bollenburg and in the storeroom of the Laabs Brothers carpentry in Großen Küte Street. Many aeroplane engines were kept in the dance hall of a restaurant in Darsow, between Gummishof, Levetzow and Dargislaff. Two aeroplanes were removed to Hammer, between Schonlanke and Scharnikau; further aeroplanes were likewise taken out to Schlachau, possibly to the drying places of a brickyard. Several aeroplanes were stored in Ratzebuhr, north of Schneidemühl. Finally, the Quast Guest House of Neuhofen, between Fihiene and Scharnikau, was the storing place of three or four aeroplanes. After 40 years Petereit understandably could not remember further storing places.

For at the end of the war only 24 aeroplanes of the "Deutsche Luftfahrtsammhmg" were discovered by the Poles, the question arises what has happened to the remaining ca. 100 planes. Surely many were destroyed during fights. Since the museum also housed quite modern airplanes, some of them may have been taken away by the Russian Army. It would be of great importance to know whether the reader can remember anything relating to this matter. Who possibly had noticed in the summer of 1943 something concerning the transportation of aeroplanes? Did anybody notice aeroplanes in the storerooms or dance halls of their villages?

In connection with the museum's further extension and the current negotiations between the Federal Government and the Polish Government concerning the return of cultural objects, it would be of great importance to obtain more information and perhaps to receive some pictures, too. "

SPOILS OF WAR N 5 1998

Now if "Deutsche Luftfahrtsammlung" (German Aviation Collection) have been mistaken for "Deutsches Technikmuseum" ("German Technical Museum") then we are looning at another story.....and i think it WAS!

[kool kitty89]

I'd immagine the airframe and engine would have gone to the Aviation collection but it would make sense for one the engines to the technical museum. And we at least know that some of the HeS-3B's are still around in museums.


And MONDARIZ,

While the washed out wiki image and your book's example look to be the same, I noticed that the one with the article I posted is at a different angle, clearly showing the exhaust where the other 2 don't.

It's almost definitly from the same location though.

[Soren]

KK,

I think the difference in the angle is because two of the pictures are of Prototype 2, and the first is of Prototype 1, both standing in the same hangar. The different exhaust is the give away.

[kool kitty89]

Soren huh?








But that said, Soren, what are the differences between the V1 and V2?

[Soren]

KK,

Note:
1.) Different end exhaust
2.) Different canopy, one has a curved top while the other is striaght.

Do you see it ?

Anyway it's just a guess as that's all we can do on things like this

[MONDARIZ]

Its almost certainly the same aircraft and the same picture.

It was not unlikely that pictures were crudely retouched, if they were deemed to be of low quality. The smaller picture looks done up in the style of a 1940's technical magazine (the surface looks painted on).

The aircraft is in exactly the same spot on the ground and relative to the hangar, a feat that would be impossible with two pictures of two aircraft.

Kool Kitty. There were not two museums it seemes. The aviation museum lost their aircaft during the war. Later (after the war) a combined technical museum was opened. Notice this bit from the article:

"housing more than 120 planes, 200 engines"

[MONDARIZ]

I found a picture showing a model of Deutsche Luftfahrtsammlung in 1936. Quite a large collection for such an early museum. Mostly outside it appears.

[Soren]

Pretty sure that's an inside view of the Museum Mondariz, note the bearing collumns. Furthermore the a/c for certain wouldn't be left outside.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

KK,

Note:
1.) Different end exhaust
2.) Different canopy, one has a curved top while the other is striaght.

Do you see it ?

Anyway it's just a guess as that's all we can do on things like this

Soren the two pictures above are of the same aircraft. One is just larger and of better quality. Look closer and you will see the canopys are the same, etc...

Originally Posted by MONDARIZ

I found a picture showing a model of Deutsche Luftfahrtsammlung in 1936. Quite a large collection for such an early museum. Mostly outside it appears.

No that is an inside view of the museum. I have seen a similiar model when I was in Berlin the last time. It is just cut away so that you can see how it would have looked like.

Its a shame that all of those planes were lost.

[MONDARIZ]

Ok, the museum is inside, the room walls and the perimeter wall just looked different

Disregarding that, we are back to the story about the He-178.

Primarily, we should focus on:

1. Did it dissapear among the other items?

2. Did it get destroyed during an air raid?

Following the rules of "expert reasoning" we should ask: Where did the destruction story come from?

Are there any hard facts regarding the destruction, or is it simply assumed (perhaps the museum was hit and since the he-178 was no where else, it was assumed it was destroyed)?

Facts seem to be, that about 100 aircraft was missing from the collection after the war. We have that from Holger Steinie, from the German Museum of Technique in Berlin. That article does NOT mention any destruction of anything.

[MONDARIZ]

I have now written to Holger Steinie, hoping to answer the question about the immediate fate of the He-178.

The question was in short:

Did the He-178 get destroyed during an air raid, or was it lost in the chaos of war?

[kool kitty89]

And the large pic I posted seems to be more correct looking, the smaller "shiny" picture seems to have been edited/enhanced differently giving the rounded canopy and odd looking exhaust. (it looks like a jet pipe, but it can be seen that the angle is odd and probably touched up oddly)

The larger picture apears to show the exhaust with a plug in place. (at first I thought the roundish hole was the exhaust but it apears to be on the plug and that whole rectangular end to the fusalage should be the exhaust)


Also there are pics like this:


Clearly showing a different tail. Hoever the V1 could simply have had a lot of changes and modification during its testing life, so there's not nacessarily another prototype. (many sourses say the second one was not completed)

It seems the V1 used 2 canop designs, 2 tail designs, and 2 wing designs. The exhaust may also have changed. The initial flights were also done with fixed landing gear, later replaced with the retractable gear. (note not just the gear left unretract, but actual fixed gear with the fusalage faired over where wells to retract into would be)

2 different engines were also used, but the larger HeS-6 didn't fit well and the intake may have been too small for it, resulting in poorer performance than the HeS-3b. Iirc there were mechanical problems tward the end of the program with the gear failing to retract, and it was thus retired. With focus being put on the He 280.

Here's another one:

Origins of German jet power


The intake design can be seen here:

History of Jet Engines - Hans Von Ohain


See also: LuftArchiv.de - Das Archiv der Deutschen Luftwaffe

[MONDARIZ]

The AC certainly was very experimental and you are most likely right, is saying the flew the V1 with different structural and aerodynamical configurations.

I read that the v2 was built, but never flew.