Casualties from Above. - Aircraft of World War II

GT · 05-09-2005, 09:21 AM

Update

Erich · 05-09-2005, 12:09 PM

GT are we positive about the deaths of these folk ? It appears from the shrapnel holes that the rig might have been strafed ? The angle looks consistent to me from mg and possibly cannon rounds and not a scattering of haphazard AA debris.

My relatives were strafed by the way during operation Thunderclap in February 45 by P-51's..........

E ~

evangilder · 05-09-2005, 12:15 PM

I don't think that anyone could get an accurate account of those types of casualties, GT. In some cases, explosions or fires can cause the bodies to be basically vaporized or just burned beyond recognition. If you did some digging about the number of missing soldiers in WWII whose bodies were never recovered, the numbers would surprise you.

Civilian casualties are almost always estimates because people moved around to get away from battle scenes.

FLYBOYJ · 05-09-2005, 01:06 PM

If there were any civilian friendly fire incidents during the Pearl Harbor attack, I think they would of been far and few. If someone was able to prove civilian friendly fire Pearl Harbor incidents today, I'm sure you would have dozens of lawyers in line attempting to sue on behalf of the families.

I've been to Hawaii numerous times, several times while in the Naval Reserves and had access to places where most civilians couldn't go. From what I could remember of the lay out of Pearl and Hickham, it would seem that any stray AA rounds would of stayed pretty close to the base. From what I understand, there wasn't much population around the bases in those days.

I would like to see the source of that photo or any other photo that claims Pearl Harbor friendly fire incidents.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 05-09-2005, 04:57 PM

I think it is a given that things like that happen. You can not stop civilian casualties no matter how hard you try, and I am sure that no matter where and by who civilians were ocassionaly strafed by aircraft. I know the Germans did it to Russian refugess fleeing the jugernaught and I am sure the Russians did it to German civilians too. I have heard of accounts of Japanese pilots doing it. It would not suprise me if the US and the British pilots did it on a lesser scale.

05-10-2005, 05:10 AM

I'm sure there were casualties from machine gun rounds that missed, and the Germans used a lot of cannon rounds w/o self-destruct fuses, those probably killed a fair number of civilians. Flak would probably be more likely to injure than to kill, but it certainly did kill a few.

Planes crashing into houses also killed people, even in the USA. My mom got in trouble for "telling lies" when she told her parents she saw a P-51 crash in California. Later, after she got her spanking, they found out that the plane had crashed into a house and killed several members of the family living there.

However, I doubt anyone kept records of such deaths/injuries in Europe, they were probably just accounted as killed by enemy air attack.

=S=

Lunatic

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 05-10-2005, 06:23 AM

I agree I dont think there were really an records of such things.

That really has to be a sucky way to die though, sleeping in your bed and then a Ju-88 comes falling through your roof.

GT · 05-10-2005, 08:47 AM

Update

FLYBOYJ · 05-10-2005, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT

It was not stafing that killed them.

They were 4 shipyard riggers were killed in their car on Judd Street en route to Pearl Harbor. The victims were John Adams and his father, Joseph Adams; their uncle, Joseph McCabe; and McCabe's nephew David Kahookele. A witness said: All of us were watching this Japanese plane fly over. And we found out later that Americans were shooting at that plane, and they didn't fuse one of their shells correctly. So instead of bursting in the air, it hit this car and blew up." it was 5" unfused shell that landed behind their car in Honolulu.

As the stunned teenager felt the concussion from the tremendous explosion, he watched the shrapnel-riddled automobile hurtle diagonally across the street and slam violently to a halt. Two of Faufata's uncles, Joseph and Fata Kekahuna, rushed across the street to help the four men inside, three of whom already were dead, one mortally wounded. Most of the casualties were caused by stray US Navy 3" Anti Aircraft (AA) shells or 50 caliber anti aircraft rounds that fell into the local neighborhoods surrounding Pearl Harbor. Civilians from Waikiki to Pearl City were killed by exploding anti aircraft munitions (friendly fire). Asian Americans were among the first US citizens and residents who became casualties when America was thrust into WW2.

Cheers
GT

http://www.gonebutnotforgotten.homes.../Civilian.html

Civilians killed

ADAMS, John Civilian
ADAMS, Joseph Civilian
AKANA, James Lum Civilian
AKINA, August Civilian
AKITAMA, George Jay Civilian
ARAKAKI, Nancy Masako Civilian
CAABAY, Benugno Civilian
CARREIRA, John Civilian
CHONG, Ernest Civilian
CHONG, Patrick Kahamokupuni Civilian
ELDRED, Phillip Ward Civilian
FAUFATA, Matilda Kaliko Civilian
FOSTER, Rowena K. Civilian
FREEMAN, Theodore Civilian
GONSALVES, Emma Civilian
HARADA, Ai Civilian
HATATE, Kisa Civilian
HIGA, Masayoshi Fred Civilian
HIRASAKI, Jackie Yoneto Civilian
HIRASAKI, Jitsuo Civilian
HIRASAKI, Robert Yoshito Civilian
HIRASAKI, Shirley Kinue Civilian
HOOKANO, Kamiko Civilian
INAMINE, Paul S. Civilian
IZUMI, Robert Seiko Civilian
KAHOOKELE, David Civilian
KIDA, Kiichi Civilian
KIDA, Sutematsu Civilian
KIMURA, Tomaso Civilian
KIM, Soon Chip Civilian
KONDO, Edward Koichi Civilian
LA VERNE, Daniel Civilian
LOO, Tai Chung Civilian
LOPES, Peter Souza Civilian
LUDICKE, Paul Civilian
MACY, Thomas Samuel Civilian
MCCABE, Joseph Civilian
NAGAMINE, Masayoshi Civilian
ODA, Yaeko Civilian
OGAWA, Mataichi Civilian
OHTA, Hayako Civilian
OHTA, Jane Yuriko Civilian
OHTA, Kiyoko Civilian
OKADA, Kaichi Civilian
OKOGI, Riyozo Civilian
ORNELLAS, Barbara June Civilian
ORNELLAS, Gertrude Civilian
OSASHI, Frank Civilian
PAIVA, Manuel Civilian
PANG, Tuck Lee Civilian
SOMA, Richard Masaru Civilian
TACDERAN, Francisco Civilian
TAKEFUJI, James Takao Civilian
TOKUSATO, Yoshio Civilian
TYCE, Robert H. Civilian
UYEHARA, Kiho Civilian
UYENO, Hisao Civilian
WHITE, Alice Civilian
WILSON, Eunice Civilian

Are these all "friendly fire" casualties?

GT · 05-10-2005, 12:29 PM

Update

FLYBOYJ · 05-10-2005, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT

Most of them according to some sources but you can read for youself on this link.

http://www.gonebutnotforgotten.homes...lianStory.html

Cheers
GT

That's really interesting, and the large amount of Japanese listed as well!

GT · 05-11-2005, 05:41 AM

Update

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 05-11-2005, 05:39 PM

I can actually believe that about the friendly fire on ships. The anti aircraft gunners would lower there guns to water level trying to hit the low flying Japanese torpedo bombers and they very easily could have hit fellow sailors on other ships.

BombTaxi · 05-11-2005, 06:21 PM

Ive been reading a book about the U-boat campaign off Cape Hatteras, and it records an incident where the destroyer USS Dickerson was fired upon by a merchantman. It was dark, and the gun crew apparently thought the four-piper was a U-boat. The destroyer's skipper, Lt. Commander John Reybold, and most of his watch were killed by a single 4" shell from the freighter Liberator

(for this account, see Homer H. Hickam Jr., 'Torpedo Junction', Bluejacket Books, (1996), ch. 8 ff .

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 05-12-2005, 10:58 AM

At times like this at the hight of the Battle of the Atlantic, the tensions were probably very high and in the dark I can see how that might happen to a scared merchantman. Due to the fact that U-Boots were known to operate that close to the US coast it would not surprise me if they did actually see a U-Boot but fired on the destroyer anyhow becuase they were confused about wearabouts.

05-09-2005, 09:21 AM	#1
GT Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 503	Casualties from Above. Update

05-09-2005, 12:09 PM	#2
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	GT are we positive about the deaths of these folk ? It appears from the shrapnel holes that the rig might have been strafed ? The angle looks consistent to me from mg and possibly cannon rounds and not a scattering of haphazard AA debris. My relatives were strafed by the way during operation Thunderclap in February 45 by P-51's.......... E ~ __________________ Rip it up !

05-09-2005, 12:15 PM	#3
evangilder "Shooter" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA Posts: 14,803	I don't think that anyone could get an accurate account of those types of casualties, GT. In some cases, explosions or fires can cause the bodies to be basically vaporized or just burned beyond recognition. If you did some digging about the number of missing soldiers in WWII whose bodies were never recovered, the numbers would surprise you. Civilian casualties are almost always estimates because people moved around to get away from battle scenes. __________________ http://www.vg-photo.com For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return. Leonardo Da Vinci

05-09-2005, 01:06 PM	#4
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,049	If there were any civilian friendly fire incidents during the Pearl Harbor attack, I think they would of been far and few. If someone was able to prove civilian friendly fire Pearl Harbor incidents today, I'm sure you would have dozens of lawyers in line attempting to sue on behalf of the families. I've been to Hawaii numerous times, several times while in the Naval Reserves and had access to places where most civilians couldn't go. From what I could remember of the lay out of Pearl and Hickham, it would seem that any stray AA rounds would of stayed pretty close to the base. From what I understand, there wasn't much population around the bases in those days. I would like to see the source of that photo or any other photo that claims Pearl Harbor friendly fire incidents. __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

05-09-2005, 04:57 PM	#5
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,152	I think it is a given that things like that happen. You can not stop civilian casualties no matter how hard you try, and I am sure that no matter where and by who civilians were ocassionaly strafed by aircraft. I know the Germans did it to Russian refugess fleeing the jugernaught and I am sure the Russians did it to German civilians too. I have heard of accounts of Japanese pilots doing it. It would not suprise me if the US and the British pilots did it on a lesser scale. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

05-10-2005, 05:10 AM	#6
Anonymous Guest Posts: n/a	I'm sure there were casualties from machine gun rounds that missed, and the Germans used a lot of cannon rounds w/o self-destruct fuses, those probably killed a fair number of civilians. Flak would probably be more likely to injure than to kill, but it certainly did kill a few. Planes crashing into houses also killed people, even in the USA. My mom got in trouble for "telling lies" when she told her parents she saw a P-51 crash in California. Later, after she got her spanking, they found out that the plane had crashed into a house and killed several members of the family living there. However, I doubt anyone kept records of such deaths/injuries in Europe, they were probably just accounted as killed by enemy air attack. =S= Lunatic

05-10-2005, 06:23 AM	#7
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,152	I agree I dont think there were really an records of such things. That really has to be a sucky way to die though, sleeping in your bed and then a Ju-88 comes falling through your roof. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

05-10-2005, 08:47 AM	#8
GT Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 503	Update

05-10-2005, 12:29 PM	#10
GT Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 503	Update

05-11-2005, 05:41 AM	#12
GT Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 503	Update

05-11-2005, 05:39 PM	#13
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,152	I can actually believe that about the friendly fire on ships. The anti aircraft gunners would lower there guns to water level trying to hit the low flying Japanese torpedo bombers and they very easily could have hit fellow sailors on other ships. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

05-11-2005, 06:21 PM	#14
BombTaxi Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brownhills, W. Mids, UK Posts: 1,189	Ive been reading a book about the U-boat campaign off Cape Hatteras, and it records an incident where the destroyer USS Dickerson was fired upon by a merchantman. It was dark, and the gun crew apparently thought the four-piper was a U-boat. The destroyer's skipper, Lt. Commander John Reybold, and most of his watch were killed by a single 4" shell from the freighter Liberator (for this account, see Homer H. Hickam Jr., 'Torpedo Junction', Bluejacket Books, (1996), ch. 8 ff . __________________ Good generals think about tactics. Great generals think about logistics. "If freedom is to be saved and enlarged, poverty must be ended. There is no other solution." - Nye Bevan "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to ask for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee" - John Donne, Meditation XVII

05-12-2005, 10:58 AM	#15
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,152	At times like this at the hight of the Battle of the Atlantic, the tensions were probably very high and in the dark I can see how that might happen to a scared merchantman. Due to the fact that U-Boots were known to operate that close to the US coast it would not surprise me if they did actually see a U-Boot but fired on the destroyer anyhow becuase they were confused about wearabouts. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

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