confirmation procedure

[syscom3]

Actually it did.

Ultra intercepts were regarded as solid gold intelligence.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Actually it did.

Ultra intercepts were regarded as solid gold intelligence.

And that's why, if through that intelligence the exagerated claims were allowed to stand. Do you really think that those who had access to this information were going to tell 8th AF folks "Hey you guys are off on your claims." That would royally compromise a link to that intellegence product - it's a matter of tipping your hand to those (even they are on your side) who had no "Need to know."

[Hop]

As well as the risk of compromising security, Ultra intelligence was limited. To decrypt a message, you first have to intercept it. That means it has to be sent by radio, rather than telephone or courier. Much of the Luftwaffe traffic within Germany would have gone via telephone line, and the allies would never have seen it.

Ultra was at it's best picking up information from forward field headquarters, ships and overseas theatres like North Africa, where radio was almost always used, and landlines rare.

After checking all the papers that were submitted, the official confirmation was prepared and sent to the unit. This very long bureaucratic proceedure sometimes took as long as a year!

How does that square with the medals German fighter pilots were awarded? As an example, Galland claimed his 40th kill on 24th September 1940. To quote Galland:

"I then succeeded Gotthard Handrick as Kommodore of JG.26 and received the Oak Leaves from Hitler on September 25 for my 40th victory."

The long involved procedure allowed Galland to make a claim on the 24th, and be in Berlin recieving a medal for it on the 25th.

I believe there is a similar pattern with Marseille, of the medals that followed kill claims being awarded within days of the claims being made.

Is this the case with most of the famous aces? Or were these cases special, or is it just a case that the famous aces were treated differently to the rank and file making their 1st or 4th or 9th kill?

[lesofprimus]

I think its a matter of which Gruppe or Jagdgeschwader they were attached to, and not Luftwaffe-wide...

[syscom3]

I would have figured that after the war, when the brits and americans were analyzing the air war, ultra dispatches might have been cited.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by syscom3

I would have figured that after the war, when the brits and americans were analyzing the air war, ultra dispatches might have been cited.

There are things gathered that are still classified 60 years later!

[Tommy Enfield]

[Udet, Perhaps you're right in stating that the Soviet verification system was unreliable at best, but it was the Luftwaffe that admited the loss of around 67% of its air strenght to the Russians, so let's stuck to the German system, though, after all they (the Soviets) did win the air battle in the East

Rgds TE]
Just one note regarding the soviet procedure to confirm victories:

it was everything but reliable. Of the main combatant nations in Europe it was easily the worst system.

The relied heavily on partisans reporting to confirm victories...something that speaks pretty much for itself.
_________________
In a national survey, 92% of the French people believed they are not ugly: 93% of them were wrong.
[/quote]

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Russians would also overclaim to boost the moral of there forces. They needed heros.

[Erich]

just s simple note written by Dutch Nachtjagd author Theo Boiten, and thusly also includes day time fighter vs bomber claims:

The contents of the separate files that you describe, by the way, strongly remind me of the individual reports that were compiled by the Wiesbadener Kommission, the official Luftwaffe body responsible for investigating each crash site of Allied a/c in WWII, and which was also responsible for crediting the aircraft shot down to individual Flak or fighter units/pilots. What I have gathered during my research is that the thousands of detailed files of the Wiesbadener Kommission (or 'Abschusskommission')have either been destroyed at the war's end, or have gone 'missing' in the spring of 1945 ...........

bummer I would say for us serious research types trying to fill in gaps

E ~

[lesofprimus]

Sever bummer... There are so very many gaps in the information available on pilot losses and kills.... Some missions are clearly accurate in the loss/kills for individual Staffel, but the next week, there is no info other than one pilot went missing....

I just blame it on the Russians burning everything when they rolled on through...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Its a shame it would have been great to get hands on those and see them if they had not burned anything. Plus the modern German government makes it hard to see whats still available.

[Tommy Enfield]

Is not only the Russians, everybody over claim to create heroes!!!!

Udet, could you let us know the sources that lead you to conclude that the Soviet verification system was the worst of all???

[Tommy Enfield]

Udet,

Perhaps you may find this information useful. I recommend you to take a look at the following book; Stalin’s Eagle by Hans D. Seidl, ISBN 0-7643-04776-3, Forewordws by Popkov & Günther Rall. This german gentleman has spent a lot of his time researching on the achievements of the soviet air force during World War Two.

So le me quote him on the verification system issue:

“The guidelines were as follows;
1.- Written combat report giving a descrition of the aerial victory.

2.- Written testimony of one or more air and ground observers.

3.- Report of search party that the wreckage of the enemy airplane was recovered.



If an enemy aircraft was shot down over enemy territory, it was credited to the unit rather to an individual. Without a witness, a claim was not filed”

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

No body said that the Russians were the only ones that did that because they needed Heroes Mr. Tommy Enfield. Dont get an attitude with me Mr.!

[Tommy Enfield]

[Dont get an attitude with me Mr.!]
Mr Adler my mail was in response to Udet's, Sir