confirmation procedure

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-23-2005, 06:28 PM

Roger that Wilco!

Soren · 11-23-2005, 07:27 PM

Tommy, Udet isnt wrong though.

The Soviets relied heavily on Partisans to confirm kills, and it was the exception rather than the rule for Soviet pilots to follow your presented list of guidelines.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-24-2005, 02:35 AM

Every country overclaimed and every country made mistakes but I would venture to say the Soviets made the biggest overclaiming of the whole war.

Tommy Enfield · 11-24-2005, 02:00 PM

Hi chaps,

I guess the Japanese made the biggest overclaiming of the whole War (mainly because they didn't have a truly verification method) and besides that, Japan was not on the winning side anyways...

...and, as far as I know, but I could be totally wrong, the Soviets won the upper hand in the Eastern Front...regardless the overclaiming stuff...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-24-2005, 05:22 PM

The Germans were not on the winning side and I would go as far as saying they were not that bad in there claims. Yes they overclaimed also but compared to the Russians, the German overclaiming was minimal. So I would not say the Japanese were the biggest overclaiming because they were not on the winning side.

Tommy Enfield · 11-25-2005, 09:05 AM

[So I would not say the Japanese were the biggest overclaiming because they were not on the winning side]

I just said that they [the japanese]made the biggest overclaiming because they didn't have a truly verification system...and what I meant was that, Japan overclaimed, but they were losing a war and the Soviets overclaimed too but they were winning a war...an interesting point that, perhaps, deserves close attention, indeed.

On the other hand, I agree that the german overclaiming was minimal, just as the American and British overclaiming was minimal as well, and they (the Anglo-Americans) didn't need to overclaim, their system worked quite well. It is just that you cannot win a long war with a few experten. the Anglo-American system, designed to win a long war, was very effective indeed. It is better to have some aces with 5.33, 8.83 or even just 1 confirmed kills who survived to teach others how to do the same than to keep your veteran pilots flying time and again, almost restless until they were killed, although, of course Germany had no choice in this regard, anyways.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-25-2005, 09:46 AM

By system do you mean the confirmation system? Because if you did, confirmation systems do not win wars. Pilots win wars and overclaiming does not have any effect on how a war is won. Also you say on a few experten, many of the experten survived the war. Germany had many pilots with over 100, 200 and even 3 I believe over 300 kills. Then there was the hundreds bettween 50 and 100 and even more from 5 to 50. These are not because of overclaiming. Germany just had more planes to shoot down.

Tommy Enfield · 11-25-2005, 04:06 PM

Totally agree with you Adler, verification systems and overclaiming are not winning factors..., which is true for the VVS (Soviet Air Force)...even though they (the russians) overclaimed, they won the War, which is what really matters. And according to what you are saying, it meant nothing for Germany in having hundreds of experten with 50, 100, 300+ confirmed kills...they couldn't stop the odds....and I understand what you meant in saying that the germans had lots of planes to shoot down; it is what is called a target rich enviroment, like the USSR in 1941-42

I got it all, so let's forget the verification system. I can conclude that if you have an excellent system which confirms that your hundreds of experienced pilots are detroying thousands of enemy planes, whilst your enemy relies on a peasant's word or a partisan's testimony, doesn't really make a difference at all, the Soviets still won the aerial (and ground) war.

Thanks and have a nice weekend!!!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-25-2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy Enfield

I got it all, so let's forget the verification system.

Forget about the verifications system, isn't that what this thread is about.

Tommy Enfield · 11-25-2005, 04:52 PM

Isn't a confirmation procedure the same as a verification system of aircraft downed?? Ok, it's good to know

Thanks Adler

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-25-2005, 04:55 PM

Now you are just getting very confusing. I never said it was not the same. You said to forget about verification systems and I asked you if that is not what this thread is about, so why should we forget about it.

Tommy Enfield · 11-25-2005, 04:58 PM

Ah ok, now I got it, sorry Adler

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-25-2005, 04:59 PM

No worries.

Tommy Enfield · 11-25-2005, 05:02 PM

What I meant to say is that it is now very clear to me that it doesn't really matter if an air force has an accurate confirmation procedure, because it has nothing to do with winning or loosing...and if you needs heroes you can create some, to boost your peoples morale.

Udet · 12-27-2005, 05:21 PM

Tommy:

My fundamental sources to affirm the soviet procedure to confirm air victories was the worst possible are the veterans of the VVS and of the red army.

In fact, and as Mr. Soren pointed out, the steps you mentioned there were hardly followed. Random is a nice a word to describe their procedure.

I was told by soviet veterans, that a high percentage of the victories of no less than 40 of the top soviet aces are, being generous, doubtful.

There is something else you could consider Tommy, did you know the official version of them soviets about the air war claims that as time passed the quality of the Luftwaffe as a whole "decreased" while theirs increased?

Can´t you detect the scent of the non-sense in the air here?

How come? How can that possibly be true, while the losses of the VVS to all causes not only decreased, but INCREASED every year of the war?

Did you know that during 1945 ALONE, the VVS lost to all causes +/-11,000 combat planes?

What kind of an airforce losses 11,000 planes in just 4 months (january, february, march, april) and 9 days (May 1st to 9th) of combat, and claim having been a "superb" armed branch, without leading you to automatically assume something very rotten is being hidden in the post-communist closet?

Do you get the point? "As the losses of my enemy increased, his quality dropped. As to my own losses, as they increased -surpassing those of my foe- my quality increased".

Were they wizzards and sorcerers? Did the "super" soviet pilots of 1943, 44 and 45 came into being by spontaneous generation?

The soviets never had the time to prepare and train the alleged super air force their official story tells emerged from the depths of mother Russia and swallowed the Luftwaffe, nor their later planes, although very capable machines, matched the overall quality of the German hardware.

Plentiful of a human resource to get hastily trained, get put in the cockpit of plane, next combat. If you survive you might improve as a pilot. Enough to achieve the desired goal.

No time. That is the clue. They never had the time.