Consolidated PBY vs. Heinkel He-115

[V-1710]

O.K., one is a floatplane, the other is a flying boat, but they were designed for roughly the same mission. Compare and contrast.

[davparlr]

The PBY is a classic of seaplanes and basically defines the WWII versions. It was like the Sherman tank, cheap, available, and good enough to get the job done in quantity. From spotting the Bismark to guadalcanal and Midway and to antisubmarine warfare, it, and the men who flew them were real warhorses.

For comparison purposes, the PBY-4 and the He 115A-3 (I only have data on the B-1) were both available at the start of the war in Europe. The PBY had a higher top speed (197mph to 189mph) but significantly slower cruising speed (115mph to 183mph). Payload was roughly the same. Where the PBY excelled was in cruising range (2070 miles normal to 740, and 4430 miles max to 1830 miles). The range was significant for this mission, especially in the Pacific, not so much so in Europe (except in the Atlantic).

Both planes could have been superseded in a year or two by much superior aircraft such as the P4Y and PBM. Only they weren't needed, the PBY was doing its job.

For range, durability, and time of service, I would select the PBY.

[pbfoot]

I don't think they are even comparable the PBY all the way

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think both aircraft were great designs and served well in there assigned roles but I go for the PBY as well.

A more interesting comparison would be the PBY vs. Do-18, Do-24, and Do-26.

Do-18

Type: Reconnaissance and Air/Sea rescue
Origin: Dornier-Werke GmbH
Models: D, G, H, N
Crew: Four
First Flight:
Do 18a: March 15, 1935
Do 18F: June 11, 1937
Do 18L: November 21, 1939
Service Delivery: September 1938
Final Delivery: 1940
Production: 100+

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine:
Do 18D:
Model: Junkers Jumo 205C
Type: diesels in tandem push/pull configuration
Number: Two Horsepower: 600 hp

Do 18G, H & N:
Model: Junkers Jumo 205D
Type: diesels in tandem push/pull configuration
Number: Two Horsepower: 700 hp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span: 23.7m (77 ft. 9 in.)
Wing Surface Area: 1054.89 sq. ft (98.00m²)
Length: 19.25m (63 ft. 2 in.)
Height: 5.45m (17 ft. 9 in.)

Weights:
Empty: 5,850kg (12,900 lbs.)
Loaded: 10,000kg (22,046 lbs.)
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 162 mph (260 kph) at sea level
Cruise Speed: 106 mph (170 kph)
Range: 2,175 miles (3,500km)
Initial Climb: N/A
Service Ceiling: 13,780 ft. (4200m)

Armament:
Do 18D-1:
Two 7.92mm MG 15 machine guns manually aimed, one mounted in the bow and one mounted in the rear cockpit.

Do 18G-1:
One 13mm MG 131 in bow cockpit
One 20mm MG 151 in powered dorsal turret

Do 18H and N: Unarmed

Payload:
Do 18D-1 & Do 18G-1:
1,000kg (2,204 lbs.) of weapons or stores mounted on wing racks.

Do-24

Type: Reconnaissance flying boat
Origin: Dornier-Werke GmbH, production by wesser, Aviolanda and Potez-CAMS (SNCAN); post-war, CASA, Spain.
Models: N and T
First Flight: Do 24V3: July 3, 1937
Service Delivery: Do 24K: November 1937
Withdrawal From Service: Spain: 1967
Production: N/A

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine:
Model: Bramo Fafnir 323R-2
Type: Nine-cylinder radials
Number: Three Horsepower: 1,000hp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span: 27m (88 ft. 7 in.)
Wing Surface Area: 1,162.5 sq. ft. (108.00m²)
Length: 22m (72 ft. 1 in.)
Height: 5.45m (17 ft. 10 in.)

Weights:
Empty: 13,500kg (29,700 lbs.)
Loaded: 18,400kg (40,565 lbs

Performance:
Maximum Speed: 211 mph (340 kph) at 9,840 ft. (3000m)
Cruise Speed: 183 mph (295 kph)
Range: 2,950 miles (4750km)
Initial Climb: N/A
Endurance: N/A
Service Ceiling: 19,360 ft. (5900m)

Armament:
One 7.92mm MG 15 machine gun in bow turret, one MG 15 in tail turret and one 20mm MG 151/20 or 30mm MK 103 cannon in dorsal turret behind wing.

Bomb Load:
Underwing racks for twelve 110lb. (50kg) bombs or other stores.



Do-26

Type: Transatlantic Mail or Coastal Patrol flying boat
Origin: Dornier-Werke GmbH.
Models: V1 to V6, and D
First Flight: May 21, 1938
Service Delivery: 1940
Final Delivery: N/A
Crew: Four

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine:
Do 26V6:
Model: Junkers Jumo 205D Diesels
Type: Each with six double-ended cylinders
and 12 opposed pistons
Number: Four Horsepower: 880 hp

Do 26A:
Model: Junkers Jumo 205 Diesels
Type: Each with six double-ended cylinders
and 12 opposed pistons
Number: Four Horsepower: 600 hp

Do 26D:
Model: Junkers Jumo 205Ea Diesels
Type: Each with six double-ended cylinders
and 12 opposed pistons
Number: Four Horsepower: 700 hp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span: 30m (98 ft. 5¼ in.)
Wing Surface Area: 120.0m² (1,291 sq. ft.)
Length: 24.60m (80 ft. 8½ in.)
Height: 6.85m (22 ft. 5¾ in.)
Weights:
Empty:
Do 26V6: 11,300kg (24,912 lbs.)
Do 26A: 10,700kg (23,589 lbs.)
Loaded:
Do 26V6: 22,500kg (49,601 lbs.)
Do 26A: 20,000kg (44,092 lbs.)

Performance:
Maximum Speed: 201 mph (324 kph)
Cruise Speed: N/A
Range: 7100 km (4,412 miles)
Initial Climb: N/A
Endurance: N/A
Service Ceiling: N/A

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armament:
20mm MG 151 in a bow turret
Three aft firing 7.92mm MG 15 machine guns.

Payload:
12 Fully-Equipped troops

PBY

Type: Maritime Patrol Flying Boat
Origin: Consolidated
Models: PBY-1 to PBY-5A (Specs for 5A)
Crew: Seven
First Flight: XP3Y-1: March 21, 1935
Service Delivery: PBY-1: October 1936
Final Delivery: After December 1945
Production: 4,000+

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Powerplant:
Model: Pratt & Whitney R-1830-92 Twin Wasp
Type: 14-cylinder twin row radial engine
Number: Two
Horsepower: 1,200 hp
Dimensions:
Wing Span: 31.72m (104 ft.)
Length: 19.5m (63 ft. 11 in.)
Height: 5.65m (18 ft. 10 in.)
Wing Area: N/A

Weights:
Empty: 7974 kg (17,465 lb)
Maximum: 15,436 kg (34,000 lb)

Performance:
Max. Speed: 314 km/h (196 mph)
Climb to 5,000 ft (1525m): 4.5 minutes
Service Ceiling: 5550m (18,200 ft.)
Range at 100 mph (161 kph): 4960 km (3,100 miles)

Armament:
U.S. Navy Configuration: (Typical)
Nose turret with either 0.3 or 0.5 in. Browning MG
One 0.5 in. Browning MG in each waist blister
One 0.5 in. Browning MG in tunnel in underside behind step

RAF Configuration: (Typical)*
Nose turret with one 0.303 Vickers K MG
Two 0.303 Vickers K MG in each waist blister
One 0.303 Vickers K MG in tunnel in underside behind step
*Vickers K sometimes replaced with Browning MG

Bomb Load:
2000 lb (907 kg) of stores on wing racks


Based off of this info the Do-24 and Do-26 were superior to the PBY in most respects. The Do-24 was also the most beautiful as well. They had one flying around here the other day. It was painted in silver and owned by some Czech company. I wish I could have taken a picture of it.

Dornier made mostly flying boats and was a real expert at it.

[davparlr]

I don't know if I have told this before, but one day I heard a airplane flying that sounded unusual. I ran out side and a Do-24 was flying low overhead heading for San Pedro to land. It was a UN bird. You are right about it being beautiful. Very graceful. I could imagine an old China Clipper flying overhead.

One of the first memories of an air show I have was of a PBY rolling down the runway and then leaping off in a column of smoke as it lit off two JATO boosters.

The PBY was obsolete at the beginning of the war but still soldiered on.

I agree with you on the Do 24 and 26. The Do 26 was clearly superior, the Do 24 was only marginally so.

[Twitch]

Well gee, my reference materials show the PBY-5A with a tope end of only 169 MPH @ sea level and 179 MPH @ 7,000 feet. Range is 2,545 miles.

The He 115B-1 could do 186 MPH @ sea level and 203 MPH @11,150 feet with a range of 2,080 miles. The later 115D of 1941 could do 248 MPH with its 1,600 HP BMWs.

Total ordnance loads were about 4,000 lbs for the Cat and around 3,000 lbs for the Heinkel.

A brief review of the 115's use shows it was quite adequate in its role and we know the Catalina was. I feel it isn't all about maximum range and ordnance load but whether each successfully carried out its missions and both craft did. So it's a tie in that area for me.

I'd simply give the nod to the Cat for the fact of sentimentality and that its far flung use was legendary plus 2,398 were built versus some 273 He 115s.

[Parmigiano]

I did bot bothered to compare performances, but in terms of beauty...



Nome / Name Fiat CMASA Rs. 14




Carattestistiche/ Type Idrovolante monoplano bimotore bombardamento / ricognizione
Anno di Costruzione Year of constr. 1939
Primo Volo/ First flight maggio 1939 pilota Ferdinando Trojano
Progettista/ Eng. Ing. manlio Stiavelli Ing. Lucio lazzarino
Equipaggio n. /Crew 4-5
Ap. Alare / mt. Span wings 19,54
Lunghezza/ mt. Lenght 14,10
Altezza/ mt. Height 5,63
Sup. Alare mq / Wing area 50,00
Motore -i / Power Plant-s 2 Fiat A.74 RC38 da 840cv ciascuno a 3800mt.
Peso max / Max weight 8470 kg.
Peso a secco / Empty weight 5470 kg.
Carico utile / Loaded weights 400 kg di bombe
Armamento / Armament 1 mitr. da 12,7 mm + 2 mitr. da 7,7mm
Vel. max/ Max speed 390 km/h a 4000mt.
Tangenza prat. / 6300 mt ( max)
Autonomia / Range 2500 km
Produzione / Production circa 184 esemplari
Varianti / Special Type Fiat AS. 14 con carrello retrattile e 6 mitragliatrici da 12,7 mm + cannone da 37mm
Note / note: Matricole Militari : MM380-383 ( 1° E 2° prototipo) / MM35386-35397 n.12 / MM35401-35422 n.22 / MM35639-35788 n.150






fiat_RS14_b.jpg

rs14.jpg

mm_48001_instructions_top_b.gif

[k9kiwi]

I would pick the PBY, but I am biased.

We live on the coast about 20 km from the New Zealand Warbirds base at Ardmore airport.

Dakato, P-51, P40N, Harvards, Spitfire, BAC Strikemaster, And the PBY all flap their wings overhead and use the air in front of us for practice most weekends.

Watching the PBY come crawling along you get the distinct feeling that the crew could get out and walk along side to stretch their legs.

But the real gotcha is listening to the P-40 go past, sounds ok. THEN you hear the growl start, and grow, and the Merlin powered P-51 honks past, bloody awesome.

But that PBY just hanging there, is stunning.

[Wildcat]

Yup, PBY all the way.

[V-1710]

I don't think the Germans were ever in a position to really utilize a large seaplane, outside of the search and rescue role. The Catalina was well suited for search and rescue, long range patrol, night attack, sub hunting, mine laying, and surface vessel attack. Yes, it was slow, but it was also strong and had a very long range (even longer with one engine shut down!). The Dornier's were very impressive indeed, but most could not match the PBY's range (the Do 26 comes very close to the non-amphibious PBY). If anything came close to the PBY's equal, it might have been one of the Cant designs.

[Smokey]

H6k

Theres also the Kawanishi H6K Mavis

Role Patrol flying boat
Crew 9
First Flight July 14 1936
Entered Service January 1938
Manufacturer Kawanishi
Dimensions
Length 25.63 m 84 ft 3 in
Wingspan 40.00 m 131 ft 2 in
Height 6.27 m 20 ft 6 in
Wing area 170 m² 1,830 ft²
Weights
Empty 11,707 kg 25,755 lb
Loaded 17,000 kg 37,400 lb
Maximum takeoff 21,500 kg 47,300 lb
Powerplant
Engines 4x Mitsubishi Kinsei 43 or 46
Power 2,984 kW 4,000 hp
Performance
Maximum speed 331 km/h 207 mph
Combat Range 4,650 km 2,906 miles
Ferry Range 6,580 km 4,112 miles
Service ceiling 9,610 m 31,520 ft
Rate of climb 370 m/min 1,213 ft/min
Wing loading 100 kg/m² 20 lb/ft²
Power/Mass 0.17 kW/kg 0.11 hp/lb
Avionics
Armament
Guns 1x 7.7 mm Type 97 machine gun in bow
1x Type 97 machine gun in spine
2x Type 97 machine guns in waist blisters
1x 20 mm Type 99 cannon in tail turret
Stores 2x 800 kg (1,760 lb) torpedoes
or 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) of bombs

Kawanishi H6K - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[daishi12]

Just throwing another aircraft into the mix, the Short Sunderland :-

Specifications (Sunderland III)
Data from Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II[1]

General characteristics
Crew: 8—11 (two pilots, radio operator, navigator, engineer, bomb-aimer, three to five gunners)
Length: 85 ft 4 in (26.0 m)
Wingspan: 112 ft 9½ in (34.39 m)
Height: 32 ft 10½ in (10 m)
Wing area: 1,487 ft² (138 m²)
Empty weight: 34,500 lb (15,663 kg)
Loaded weight: 58,000 lb (26,332 kg)
Max takeoff weight: lb (kg)
Powerplant: 4× Bristol Pegasus XVIII nine-cylinder radial engines, 1,065 hp (794 kW) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 210 mph (336 km/h) at 6,500 ft (1,980 m)
Cruise speed: 178 mph (285 km/h) at 5,000 ft (1,525 m)
Stall speed: 78 mph (125 km/h)
Range: 1,780 mi (2,848 km)
Service ceiling: 16,000 ft (4,880 m)
Rate of climb: 720 ft/min (3.67 m/s)
Wing loading: 39 lb/ft² (191 kg/m²)
Power/mass: .018 hp/lb (.030 kW/kg)
Armament
8× .303 calibre machine guns
various munitions, including bombs and depth charges, carried internally and winched out beneath the wings

(sourced from Wikipedia)

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by V-1710

I don't think the Germans were ever in a position to really utilize a large seaplane, outside of the search and rescue role. The Catalina was well suited for search and rescue, long range patrol, night attack, sub hunting, mine laying, and surface vessel attack. Yes, it was slow, but it was also strong and had a very long range (even longer with one engine shut down!). The Dornier's were very impressive indeed, but most could not match the PBY's range (the Do 28 comes very close to the non-amphibious PBY). If anything came close to the PBY's equal, it might have been one of the Cant designs.

The only think the Catalina had over the Do-24 was range, otherwise performance and payload went to the Do-24. The Do-26 beat out the Catalina in everything including range.

[Parmigiano]

I think that the discussion expanded a bit, from the PBY vs He115 comparison.

Italian designs (Cant and Fiat) were conceived for the mediterranean area, where 2500km of patrol range was enough, so the machines could be lighter and faster.
But for Atlantic or Pacific missions this range was inadequate.

If long patrol range was requred, then the aircraft must be heavier and (generally speaking) with lower performances.

The ultimate long range flying boat could be the Emily, that also carried a good defensive armament of 5x20mm plus some 7.7 mg:

KAWANISHI H8K2 EMILY:

   _____________________   _________________   _______________________
 
   spec                    metric              english
   _____________________   _________________   _______________________

   wingspan                38 meters           124 feet 8 inches
   wing area               160 sq_meters       1,722 sq_feet
   length                  28.15 meters        92 feet 4 inches
   height                  9.15 meters         30 feet

   empty weight            18,370 kilograms    40,520 pounds
   normal loaded weight    24,500 kilograms    54,010 pounds
   max loaded weight       32,500 kilograms    71,650 pounds

   max speed               465 KPH             290 MPH / 252 KT
   cruise speed            295 KPH             184 MPH / 160 KT
   service ceiling         8,760 meters        28,740 feet
   range                   7,150 kilometers    4,440 MI / 3,865 NMI
   _____________________   _________________   _______________________

it is anyway a design of a younger generation compared to the PBY

The point is that after 1943 aircraft design progressed so much that the land based patrol aircraft (the Liberator/Privateer for instance) could take the job without the performance handicap connected to flying boats, making them obsolete.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

The only think the Catalina had over the Do-24 was range, otherwise performance and payload went to the Do-24. The Do-26 beat out the Catalina in everything including range.

My sources agree with this.