Was the corsair as good a fighter as the spitfire or the FW?

[wmaxt]

The P-38s from H on had a "maneuvering flap" at 8 to 12 deg depending on the model.

P-38 vs Fw-190 below 20,000ft all markes of P-38 were with an average pilot reported as better (even by the 20th FG who hated their 38s). Early models of the Fw-190 didn't do well above 20,000ft, but the P-38s leading edge intercoolers limited it to, The 20th rated them as even.

The late aircraft of each were better in both areas the Galland Fw-190D/P-38L story is that they had a dogfight that ended in a huge gravel pit Galland couldn't get away and the P-38 could only get in a few potshots until the P-38 ran low on fuel - so was Galland by then and they each went their own ways. The account I read stated Galland turned white and said you about killed me that day as he heard the story being recited. Both pilots were attending a post war fighter confrence with other pilots at the time.

Art Heiden felt the P-38L was a lot better even up high - but what pilot doesn't belive in the plane he has success in?

I think that they were very close, each with its own advantages.

wmaxt

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The 190 was never outclassed by any allied fighters. Ask any allied fighter pilot and they will tell you that aswell. The 190 was a top of the line fighter to the end.

[Twitch]

That is pure myth about the thottle jockeying guys. I heard that many years ago and actually asked P-38 pilots that flew with Bong. It is categorically untrue. The P-38 is an energy fighter and no one with experience ever tried to out turn Zeros!! P-38 didn't "spin on the spot" by fiddling with the throttles. Picture that whole thing in your mind and you'll realize how unbelievable it is.

Ralph Wandrey told me "the only way a P-38 would have been in a favorable position to cut the apex of a Zeke's turn was if the Zeke was at about 350 MPH after a shallow dive since its ailerons normally became very heavy at that velocity.

If you didn't nail the Zeke then he would have bled off enough speed in the turn for his envelope of high maneuverability again and he'd come around on you."

Don't want to argue with anyone but don't believe this myth guys...

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Twitch

That is pure myth about the thottle jockeying guys. I heard that many years ago and actually asked P-38 pilots that flew with Bong. It is categorically untrue. The P-38 is an energy fighter and no one with experience ever tried to out turn Zeros!! P-38 didn't "spin on the spot" by fiddling with the throttles. Picture that whole thing in your mind and you'll realize how unbelievable it is.

Ralph Wandrey told me "the only way a P-38 would have been in a favorable position to cut the apex of a Zeke's turn was if the Zeke was at about 350 MPH after a shallow dive since its ailerons normally became very heavy at that velocity.

If you didn't nail the Zeke then he would have bled off enough speed in the turn for his envelope of high maneuverability again and he'd come around on you."

Don't want to argue with anyone but don't believe this myth guys...

Well it's funny - I know that Ralph Wandrey actually flew with Bong and he was his wingman during his second tour. Hmmm.., no one said you could get the P-38 to spin on an instance by doing this, but this "trick" was documented in several publications including a 1945 copy of the Lockheed Star (the first time I ever seen it). My ex wife and I worked with Tony LeVier - he told me about this as well but never mentioned who actually did it.....

I've heard this spoken about by many old timers I worked with while at Lockheed 1980 - 1990, some were pilots who said this was done but not by very many.....

Its not unbelivable - I've seen people play with light twins (C-310s) and do similar maneuvers - ever see Bob Hoover!?

[FLYBOYJ]

"Among others, Capt. Tommy Lynch and Ist Lt. John "Shady" Lane of the New Guinea-based 39th FS began to experiment with the beneficial effects of adverse yaw. Though the P-38's counter-rotating props largely eliminated the torque common to high-performance aircraft, a left turn (for instance) could be improved by advancing full throttle on the right (outboard) engine and reducing power inboard."

From P-38 Flight Journal, Winter 2003 by Tillman, Barrett

[FLYBOYJ]

Ralph Wandrey was said to be one of Dick Bong's favorite wingman, he come on scene in the Pacific in early 1943. By that time the initial "batch" of P-38 pilots have already had their share of playing with the P-38. The 39th and the 9th was the first units to receive P-38s and its at this time I believe Tommy Lynch, John Lane, Dick Bong and Stan Sparks and later possibly Gerry Johnson began playing with the P-38 and examining the use of adverse yaw in an attempt to tighten a turn or increase the roll rate in the P-38. I do know that Lynch specifically told his pilots DO NOT attempt a turning battle with any Japanese aircraft, it does not mean that this "technique" wasn't attempted by these guys...

I know Wandrey was a 6 kill ace and is one of the last (if not the last) surviving member of the original 9th FS. I would respect his word on this matter but the fact he wasn't there with these guys in the beginning doesn't mean it was not attempted. As stated earlier I once had a conversation with Tony LeVeir and he was well aware of pilots doing this maneuver. I believe that Wandrey perhaps did not hear of any of these guys doing this the time he was flying with them....The "myth" came from somewhere - I believe it was at least experimented with and maybe employed...

[wmaxt]

I wrote for an hour (yes I'm that slow) and the machine lost it. I'll post most of it tomorrow.

Adler,
Those were the words of a pilot in the 20th FG. Art Heidens feelings fall in here to so does a number of others. I understand part of that is pilot bravado, but to, if he thought the 38 wasn't up to it he would say that to.

Galland, in a Fw-190D, couldn't gain the advantage or get away from a P-38 - thats a pretty good guage of their relative capabilities with good pilots.

Robin Olds got 2 in his first dogfight. Another pilot got 5 in a fur ball, in one mission.

Stienhoff reported the Lightning (flying from Africa) was faster and more maneuverable than his aircraft. I don't know if there were any Fw-190s there.

Did this mean the P-38 could walk all over a contemporary Fw-190, only on a bounce which doesn't count here. I feel and evedince exists that the P-38 could and did fight 1:1 with the top fighters (Spit, 190) of WWII. The initiave and who made/didn't make mistakes was going to be the loser.

Twitch,
Jeff Ethell has an article in Flight Journal Mag. about the P-38 and the effectiveness of a throttle assisted turn like his dad, Irv, did in WWII.
http://www.flightjournal.com/ from here go to famous planes then to P-38. Jeff flew all the AAF aircraft so his thoughts are valid.

wmaxt

[FLYBOYJ]

I forgot about Jeff Ethell - I remember reading about this in one of his books as well - you know he died in a P-38 a few years ago....

[FLYBOYJ]

And I'm going to throw one more in here.....

"The initial reluctance of the P-38 to enter a roll was easily
counteracted: throttle back the inside engine briefly as as you turn the
wheel, then bring power back up. The plane would snap into a roll so fast
it might knock your head against the canopy. The trick was not to let the
plane get away from you when doing this. It took praciice to get it right
and make it an automatic action, especially during the heat of combat."

"Roll rate in early models was directly related to pilot skill. Proper use of
differential throttle would induce a remarkable high roll rate (in either
direction) not attainable by aileron alone."

"As far as he knows.... Several of the 475th and 49th FG veterans wrote about being instructed by some of the hot pilots about the use of differential throttle to induce a roll faster than merely cranking in right or left yoke."

Taken from an interview with Elliot Dent, 49th FG. Dent flew P-40s and P-38s and finished the war with 6 kills.....

http://yarchive.net/mil/p38.html

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by wmaxt

Adler,
Those were the words of a pilot in the 20th FG. Art Heidens feelings fall in here to so does a number of others. I understand part of that is pilot bravado, but to, if he thought the 38 wasn't up to it he would say that to.

Galland, in a Fw-190D, couldn't gain the advantage or get away from a P-38 - thats a pretty good guage of their relative capabilities with good pilots.

Robin Olds got 2 in his first dogfight. Another pilot got 5 in a fur ball, in one mission.

Stienhoff reported the Lightning (flying from Africa) was faster and more maneuverable than his aircraft. I don't know if there were any Fw-190s there.

Did this mean the P-38 could walk all over a contemporary Fw-190, only on a bounce which doesn't count here. I feel and evedince exists that the P-38 could and did fight 1:1 with the top fighters (Spit, 190) of WWII. The initiave and who made/didn't make mistakes was going to be the loser.

Twitch,
Jeff Ethell has an article in Flight Journal Mag. about the P-38 and the effectiveness of a throttle assisted turn like his dad, Irv, did in WWII.
http://www.flightjournal.com/ from here go to famous planes then to P-38. Jeff flew all the AAF aircraft so his thoughts are valid.

wmaxt

I never said that a Lightning could not go 1:1 with a Fw-190. I am just saying that the 190 was not outlcassed by any fighter of the day as Soundbreaker Welch? said:

Just wondering why the FW got the highest rank as top fighter plane of WWII when they say it was outclassed by all the better ally aircraft?

[Twitch]

Well what bored Lockheed test pilots did for amusement certainly wasn't remotely familiar with combat. The reality is that the P-38 was an energy fighter not a turner and anyone stepping outside that envelope in combat would be toast. Dicking around with throttles in an experimental attempt to out turn a Zero, Oscar, Nate or whatnot would produce your own death. As it was put to me, "nobody was dumb enough to try and turn with the Japs and live."

I asked P-38 pilots from Wandrey and Paul Murphey to Larry Blumer and Jack Ilfrey and their 1st response was always laughter and a quip to the effect of "Is that old wives' tale still going around?" Then I'd be educated on the finer points of the P-38's handling and told that whatever increase in turn radius could be milked out of separate throttle, richness and pitch adjustments it wouldn't produce anywhere near a significant increase in turn rate for the time and effort put in. I got statements like "nobody is going to fart around like that with a Jap on your tail!" "The P-38 couldn't out turn the 109 in any circumstances of combat we encountered."

So after asking probably 6 P-38 aces the question I figured they were telling the truth. But what the hey!

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Twitch

Well what bored Lockheed test pilots did for amusement certainly wasn't remotely familiar with combat.

Tony LeVeir was a board test pilot? Do you even have an inkling who the hell he is (was)?!?!?

Originally Posted by Twitch

I asked P-38 pilots from Wandrey and Paul Murphey to Larry Blumer and Jack Ilfrey and their 1st response was always laughter and a quip to the effect of "Is that old wives' tale still going around?"

Jack Ilfrey flew in the ETO and it was pointed out this was not done by ETO pilots!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Twitch

Then I'd be educated on the finer points of the P-38's handling and told that whatever increase in turn radius could be milked out of separate throttle, richness and pitch adjustments it wouldn't produce anywhere near a significant increase in turn rate for the time and effort put in. I got statements like "nobody is going to fart around like that with a Jap on your tail!" "The P-38 couldn't out turn the 109 in any circumstances of combat we encountered."

So after asking probably 6 P-38 aces the question I figured they were telling the truth. But what the hey!

Well don't know what to tell you, I've shown you my sources and heard it from guys at the factory, if its a wives tale, its survived pretty long and has been well documented by a host of others...

But then again those who allegedly did this are no longer with us, so dead men can't say much.....

[Twitch]

Well point being if it was such a well-known deal why weren't ETO guys privy to it? They had as much skill as PTO guys? Also the dynamics behind more juice on one fan while turning has extremely limited benefits. May be noticeable in a very slow flat shallow-bank turn. At combat speeds as soon as you're into a steep banking turn you're beginning to use the elevator to turn. If you think you are going to make a tighter right turn, as soon as the higher revving engine port becomes the TOP engine due to the bank, the extra speed of it is going to want to bring the top fuselage down not tighter to starboard.

If you all want to discount the ETO pilots' input because someone somehow categoricaly knows they didn't attempt the maneuver it sounds kind of elitist like they were too dumb or something. I described the concept to them and they said NO. These guys were not unfamiliar wirh P-38s. Ralph Wandrey and Paul Murphey both at the same location at the same time said it was a misguided tale when they heard it together. Others mentioned things like, "sounds like a good way to get into trouble. Do you expect anyone to be behind a maneuverable enemy, chop one throttle, decrease mixture, firewall the other, increase mixture, and adjust pitch on both? Cause that's what you'd need to do in that scenario. Hell son, by then the guy in front would be behind you lobbing 20s up your butt!"

Think about it. Picture it in your mind and you'll realize that once you're up on the elevator at combat speed this can't work. Ask a P-38 pilot and you'll get a similar response to the ones I got.

Yeah I met LaVeir in the early 1980s actually before I heard this armchair ace's turn legend. In my work I've interviewed a couple hundred American, British, Russian and German aces.

So anyone can believe whatever on this I guess. I don't argue with peopl e on the internet to each his own.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Twitch

Well point being if it was such a well-known deal why weren't ETO guys privy to it?

Those to ask are no longer with us, well, I don't know what to tell you, but the "legend lives on."

Originally Posted by Twitch

They had as much skill as PTO guys?

Beats me but I would guess because these PTO guys got their birds first, they began to "experiment" first.

Originally Posted by Twitch

Also the dynamics behind more juice on one fan while turning has extremely limited benefits. May be noticeable in a very slow flat shallow-bank turn. At combat speeds as soon as you're into a steep banking turn you're beginning to use the elevator to turn.

Actually you apply elevator back pressure (and maybe power) in any turn in order to stay level - flying 101...

Originally Posted by Twitch

If you think you are going to make a tighter right turn, as soon as the higher revving engine port becomes the TOP engine due to the bank, the extra speed of it is going to want to bring the top fuselage down not tighter to starboard.

And as mentioned in the post I submitted from Elliot Dent, all controls are coordinated to take advantage of this....

Originally Posted by Twitch

If you all want to discount the ETO pilots' input because someone somehow categoricaly knows they didn't attempt the maneuver it sounds kind of elitist like they were too dumb or something. I described the concept to them and they said NO. These guys were not unfamiliar wirh P-38s. Ralph Wandrey and Paul Murphey both at the same location at the same time said it was a misguided tale when they heard it together.

Well if Elliot Dent was still alive it would of been interesting to put all of them in the same room together!

Originally Posted by Twitch

Others mentioned things like, "sounds like a good way to get into trouble. Do you expect anyone to be behind a maneuverable enemy, chop one throttle, decrease mixture, firewall the other, increase mixture, and adjust pitch on both? Cause that's what you'd need to do in that scenario. Hell son, by then the guy in front would be behind you lobbing 20s up your butt!"

On one side I could agree, but what you're saying there is wrong - you don't touch the mixture - this was all done with throttle and maybe prop control - mixture control in almost any reciprocating engine is only adjusted at certain times in order to achieve the proper air-fuel mixture for the altitude the aircraft is being operated at and in certain situations engine cooling......

Originally Posted by Twitch

Think about it. Picture it in your mind and you'll realize that once you're up on the elevator at combat speed this can't work. Ask a P-38 pilot and you'll get a similar response to the ones I got.

It take two seconds to do this - would I try it?!? Hell no! Was it SOP for guys in the 39th or 9th FS? Hell no!! Tommy Lynch wrote about not turing with any Japanese aircraft, but did it preclude him or other highly gifted pilots from attempting it??? - But it seems some of these guys played around with this as the legend persisted and well documented by Elliot Dent.

Originally Posted by Twitch

Yeah I met LaVeir in the early 1980s actually before I heard this armchair ace's turn legend.

??? - LeVier probably participated in more dangerous flying than any 10 P-38 drivers during WW2 (and that's not taking anything away from those guys). I've worked close by to Tony for almost 3 years, he was humble and gracious and wrote the book that many of the guys you describe eventually followed.

Originally Posted by Twitch

In my work I've interviewed a couple hundred American, British, Russian and German aces.

And in my work I actually worked on (and flown, maybe a couple of hundred hours) warbirds and knew guys who flew them...Then and today!!!

Originally Posted by Twitch

So anyone can believe whatever on this I guess. I don't argue with peopl e on the internet to each his own.

Yep!

[syscom3]

Tony Levier probably knew more about flying the P38 and how it handled than any person that flew it.

And yes, he was a nice and personable guy. Always was a pleasure to talk to (and yes, i have met him).