 | Was the corsair as good a fighter as the spitfire or the FW?| Aviation Discuss Was the corsair as good a fighter as the spitfire or the FW? in the World War II - Aviation forums; Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ
If it worked against a KI-43 it WILL work against ANY -190 mark, providing the -... |
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02-26-2006, 10:17 AM
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#91 | | Senior Member
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| Quote: |
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ
If it worked against a KI-43 it WILL work against ANY -190 mark, providing the -190 driver allowed himself to be suckered into the maneuver. The KI-43 was one of, if not the most maneuverable fighter aircraft of WW2 below 300 mph -
| If the Fw-190 got suckered into a low speed turn fight, where the P-38 has the height advantage and could utilize its maneuver flaps, then yes I agree it is very possible. But the point is a good Fw-190 pilot won't allow that to happen, and since he's got Speed, climb rate, roll rate and turn rate to his advantage he's got every opportunity to avoid it. Quote: |
There's a lot of assumptions here and its hard to theorize here, but I agree with Lunatic, this is not an impossibility....
| I agree, it is not impossible, but it would take alot of skill and luck to pull it off against a Fw-190.
__________________  We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | 
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02-26-2006, 03:53 PM
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#92 | | Senior Member
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| The Max climb rate of the Fw-190D-9 is rated at 3,250min, another source puts it at 32,800ft in 16min. The P-38L could hit 4,000ft/min (chart shown below) and hit 35,000ft from sea level in 15min in METO power 17,400#(pilots handbook). Even if you only accept the 1600hp max for each engine of the P-38L max climb should be in the 3800ft/min range. The 190 could not out climb the P-38L anywhere.
The P-38H had a climb of 3,500ft/min and could reach 35,000ft in 13 min and is still climbing at 1,200ft/min in '43 16,100# combat weight METO power.
wmaxt | |
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02-26-2006, 04:30 PM
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#93 | | Senior Member
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| The Fw-190 Dora-9 has a climb rate of 3,642 ft/min, and will reach 20,000ft in 7min 6 sec, max climb rate using "Sonder Notleistung mit a lader als bodenmotor" would be even higher. While the P-38L has a climb rate of 2857 ft/min at normal combat weight(17500 lbs).
This also compares well with the power-loading figures(Especially when we add the flat plate area):
P-38L: 5.93 lbs/hp
Fw-190D-9: 4.22 lbs/hp
Your figures must be for a VERY lightly loaded P-38 !
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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02-26-2006, 05:05 PM
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#94 | | Senior Member
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| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Soren The Fw-190 Dora-9 has a climb rate of 3,642 ft/min, and will reach 20,000ft in 7min 6 sec, max climb rate using "Sonder Notleistung mit a lader als bodenmotor" would be even higher. While the P-38L has a climb rate of 2857 ft/min at normal combat weight(17500 lbs).
This also compares well with the power-loading figures(Especially when we add the flat plate area):
P-38L: 5.93 lbs/hp
Fw-190D-9: 4.22 lbs/hp
Your figures must be for a VERY lightly loaded P-38 ! | No as I quoted above there for an L model at 17,400lbs, combat weight.
wmaxt | |
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02-27-2006, 08:42 AM
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#95 | | Senior Member
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| Don't tell me you actually believe in those figures wmaxt ?!
Obviously somethings terribly wrong with those figures, cause they're fantasy like.
According to those figures the P-38 weighing 17,400 lbs, and using only 1,100hp of power, would reach 20,000ft faster than a plane only half that weight and with more power available. So it doesn't take a genius to figure out that there's something seriously not right about those figures...
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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02-27-2006, 09:09 AM
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#96 | | Banned
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| Soren don't be such a twit. Any idiot can see that there is something wrong with the labelling of the graph.
You also forgot to double the hp as there is 2 engines.  | |
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02-27-2006, 09:50 AM
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#97 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by KraziKanuK Soren don't be such a twit. Any idiot can see that there is something wrong with the labelling of the graph. | Krazi there's no need be rude, its easy to see the graph, its just a little blurred thats all. Quote: |
Originally Posted by KraziKanuK You also forgot to double the hp as there is 2 engines. | No I didn't Krazi, 1100+1100 equals 2200, thats 40 less horsepower than the Fw-190D-9 
But obviously you forgot to look at the power-loading and flat plate area !
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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02-27-2006, 09:56 AM
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#98 | | Senior Member
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| All the sources Ive seen for time to climb to 20,000 feet for the P38, were in the 6.0 minute range (+/- a few seconds).
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02-27-2006, 10:03 AM
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#99 | | Senior Member
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| Thats preposterous !
We're talking about a plane which weighs twice that of an ordinary single engined fighter, and it doesn't even have twice the power ! And the wing-loading and drag of the P-38 is also waay higher !
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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02-27-2006, 10:17 AM
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#100 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
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Country:  | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Soren Thats preposterous !
We're talking about a plane which weighs twice that of an ordinary single engined fighter, and it doesn't even have twice the power ! And the wing-loading and drag of the P-38 is also waay higher ! | I gotta agree with Soren - I just looked in a POH - Time to 15,000 feet in a J with V-1710s-89/91 was 5 minutes, 9 minutes to 25,000 @ 17,400 lbs.
An L at 17,400 still shows a 9 minute climb to 25,000, 5 minutes to 15,000.
Best climb speed between SL and 25,000 is 180 - 170 MPH (Vx)
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"  | |
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02-27-2006, 10:20 AM
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#101 | | Banned
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| If you did not make such dumb post, I would not have commented. Dumb because there is obviously something wrong with the labelling.
You said 1100hp, not 2200hp.
What is so hard to believe about the climb? The P51 with 1490hp, and 260kg lighter, climbed to 6.0km in 6.1 minutes while the D-9 with 1750hp took 7.7 minutes. This from a book on the Dora.
So it doesn't take a genius to figure out that there's something seriously not right.
BTW, the climb rate of the Dora dropped off dramatically above 4km. | |
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02-27-2006, 10:39 AM
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#102 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
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Originally Posted by KraziKanuK If you did not make such dumb post, I would not have commented. Dumb because there is obviously something wrong with the labelling.
You said 1100hp, not 2200hp.
What is so hard to believe about the climb? The P51 with 1490hp, and 260kg lighter, climbed to 6.0km in 6.1 minutes while the D-9 with 1750hp took 7.7 minutes. This from a book on the Dora.
So it doesn't take a genius to figure out that there's something seriously not right.
BTW, the climb rate of the Dora dropped off dramatically above 4km. | The actual P-38 POH says otherwise - I calculate 7 minutes at 2650 ft/mim for the J/L based on the POH and again this is at 17,400 pounds
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02-27-2006, 10:43 AM
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#103 | | Senior Member
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If you did not make such dumb post, I would not have commented. Dumb because there is obviously something wrong with the labelling.
| I commented on what the graph says Krazi, and that is not "Dumb". Quote: |
You said 1100hp, not 2200hp.
| Ofcause I did ! Cause it says 1100 hp !!
Multiplying that gives you 2200 hp, thats less than the Fw-190D-9 for twice as heavy an a/c, and thats what I said Krazi !
And when you add the flat pate area as-well, it really looks ridiculous ! Quote:
What is so hard to believe about the climb? The P51 with 1490hp, and 260kg lighter, climbed to 6.0km in 6.1 minutes while the D-9 with 1750hp took 7.7 minutes. This from a book on the Dora.
So it doesn't take a genius to figure out that there's something seriously not right.
| At normal military power the P-51 would reach 20,000ft in 7.5 min. Quote: |
BTW, the climb rate of the Dora dropped off dramatically above 4km.
| There should still be more than enough power to beat the P-38 to 6km !
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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02-27-2006, 10:55 AM
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#104 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
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Country: | The posted climb data in the POH is the same for the J and L
17,400lbs - 7 minutes to 20,000 feet
19,400lbs - 9 minutes
21,400lbs - 11 minutes
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT" | |
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02-27-2006, 02:47 PM
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#105 | | Senior Member
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| Quote: |
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ Quote: |
Originally Posted by Soren Thats preposterous !
We're talking about a plane which weighs twice that of an ordinary single engined fighter, and it doesn't even have twice the power ! And the wing-loading and drag of the P-38 is also waay higher ! | I gotta agree with Soren - I just looked in a POH - Time to 15,000 feet in a J with V-1710s-89/91 was 5 minutes, 9 minutes to 25,000 @ 17,400 lbs.
An L at 17,400 still shows a 9 minute climb to 25,000, 5 minutes to 15,000.
Best climb speed between SL and 25,000 is 180 - 170 MPH (Vx) | Those numbers are at 54" boost to. 60" (350hp) boost will make a difference as will 64" boost (600hp). I'm giving both numbers because of the possibility that the 64" boost was not used/available often, many pilots note they used "over 60" so who knows for sure?
The power loading for a P-38L at combat weight (17,400lbs) and 3200hp 60" boost is 5.4lbs/hp. The Dora 9 at normal loaded weight is 9840lbs and 1776hp (no boost) for 5.5lbs/hp. Not so different.
wmaxt | |
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