Corsair vs. BF 109G,K or FW 190's

[renrich]

Whoops, just found a note under the title "F4U1D Structural Description" note reads-(metal noted is aluminum alloy unless otherwise stated)

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

You've got to be kidding me FLYBOYJ.. Automatic LE slats were not a std. addition on WW2 a/c, esp. not British a/c, comparing this device to placing a handle on the right instead of the left is just plain ridiculous.

No more than a test pilot being "afraid" to stall an airplane that has them.

[Glider]

No one seems to be awnsering my question which is If the Slats were such a good idea in combat, why didn't the Germans train their pilots to use them?.
As I said before, its an easy process to do.

[Juha]

Soren
“And then ofcourse its not even sure that the test pilot flying the 109 ever flew a Whirlwind.”

That’s true, but your first claim was
"The British test-pilots weren't used to automatic LE slats, infact they had flown no aircraft featuring it, "

At least Eric Brown had flown Whirlwind and from his description probably very early version which suffered badly from tail buffeting in tight turns. Now LE slats tests were flown by 32nd production Whirlwind, not very early my memory made a trick, in April-May 41, ie when a/c was already in sqn service. So it’s not so farfetched that British test pilots had flown a/c with LE slats unlocked and after all there was Swordfish and Brown had flown that type many times. In fact it a bit strange if a testpilot ordered to fly Bf 109 would not try a a/c with LE slats before starting testing a rare captured a/c.

More probably is that British test pilots didn’t try to use a bit flaps, circa 8 deg, to momentarily tighten their turns in Bf 109, because at least Spit and Hurri had only up or fully down option for flaps. And that might have led to underestimate the turning ability of well flown bf 109 in slow speed turning match. And of course it true that one can flew safely Bf 109 to its limits in turning match because it benign stall characteristics.

Juha

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Glider

No one seems to be awnsering my question which is If the Slats were such a good idea in combat, why didn't the Germans train their pilots to use them?.
As I said before, its an easy process to do.

I did, read my post again Glider.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

No more than a test pilot being "afraid" to stall an airplane that has them.

What are you talking about ?

Stalling an aircraft at 1G is differen't than stalling it at multiple G's in turns. But British pilots weren't afraid of stalling the a/c at 1G, it was in turns they obviously mistrusted the slats and feared they would jam causing the airplane to enter an unrecoverable spin.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Soren

I did, read my post again Glider.

Thanks for pointing it out, my mistake. Can I ask where you can substantiate this comment, as I am afraid that the words don't logically hold any water.
Your saying that in the later stages of the war when German training hours were under severe strain and training pilots to have the basic skills was a priority. When pilots were spending less and less time in the air, we are expected to believe they started to train the pilots in this way.
Whereas up until 1942 when the Germans had a very detailed training scheme as good as the best in the world, your saying they didn't.

You can see the problem in your argument, as this issue would have been obvious from the days of the Spanish Civil War.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

No more than a test pilot being "afraid" to stall an airplane that has them.

Yet...

COMBAT TRIALS AGAINST Me.109G

Turning Circle
47. The Tempest is slightly better, the Me.109G being embarrassed by its slots opening near the stall.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

What are you talking about ?

Stalling an aircraft at 1G is differen't than stalling it at multiple G's in turns. But British pilots weren't afraid of stalling the a/c at 1G, it was in turns they obviously mistrusted the slats and feared they would jam causing the airplane to enter an unrecoverable spin.

A stall is a stall!!! If you're a test pilot 1 or 4 Gs in a turn or an accelerated straight stall shouldn't make a differance - If they (the test pilots) feared the slats would "jam" they shouldn't be flying the aircraft. It's their job to figure out the way things work including getting the aircraft into an uncontrollable spin.

Soren, you produced little evidence to back of this claim....

[AL Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Yet...
Turning Circle
47. The Tempest is slightly better, the Me.109G being embarrassed by its slots opening near the stall.

It doesn't say the pilot was embarrassed, only the plane was.

[Soren]

LoL, you guys are incredible!

FLYBOYJ, there's a big difference between an uncontrollable spin and an irrecoverable spin! - in the irrecoverable one your aircraft doesn't walk away unscaved. Are you seriously suggesting that the RAF test pilots were willing to itentionally crash a captured a/c just to possibly find out once where the limit might be, loosing all notes in the process and being unable to repeat the procedure again to rule out possible mistakes and conditions responsible for the end result, leaving you without the chance of ever getting it right ???!

Seriously now, put yourself in their shoes! All they'd heard about the slats was bad news about them failing in turns and sending the aircraft into an unrecoverable spin.

Test-pilots take risks, but not unnecessary ones.

[Soren]

Glider,

After the introduction of the F series with its improved and fail free LE slats new pilots would've been instructed as I mentioned. And as we know the F series entered service in 1941 - try finding pilots who started flying the F series who complain that the Spitfire was a handful in a dogfight, you won't find any..

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

LoL, you guys are incredible!

FLYBOYJ, there's a big difference between an uncontrollable spin and an irrecoverable spin! - in the irrecoverable one your aircraft doesn't walk away unscaved. Are you seriously suggesting that the RAF test pilots were willing to itentionally crash a captured a/c just to possibly find out once where the limit might be, loosing all notes in the process and being unable to repeat the procedure again to rule out possible mistakes and conditions responsible for the end result, leaving you without the chance of ever getting it right ???!

That's the job of a test pilot - to test the limits of an aircraft's performance and sometimes that is done with risk and it doesn't matter if you're testing a captured enemy aircraft or the newest fighter. A determination is made to find the "edge of the envelope" and again that's the job of a properly trained test pilot...

Originally Posted by Soren

Seriously now, put yourself in their shoes! All they'd heard about the slats was bad news about them failing in turns and sending the aircraft into an unrecoverable spin.

Test-pilots take risks, but not unnecessary ones.

You said "they heard." I'd put my self in their shoes and consult with an engineer and maintenance personnel assigned to the program to assure that the slats were working properly and I'm sure the Air Ministry at that time had procedures to develop a test flight profile based on information they wished to attained. Again not exploiting the aircraft to its fullest is just nonsense.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by AL Schlageter

It doesn't say the pilot was embarrassed, only the plane was.

Yes - there is no evidence in any of those reports that the pilots "backed off" any maneuvers based on the slats deploying. BTW the first aircraft to have automatic operating leading edge slats? Well it wasn't German and it was well before the war stated...



"It was equipped with automatic wing slats and slotted flaps, which were novel features for the era. The combination of these wing enhancements gave the Lysander a stalling speed of 65 mph"

So with that Soren, I doubt the British lacked knowledge of automatic leading edge slats and their function....

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Again not exploiting the aircraft to its fullest is just nonsense.

Nope, it`s a fact readily acknowledged by the report, supported by evidence from several German, Russian flying test centres and Luftwaffe pilots quoted in this thread, and last but not least, physics.

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

BTW the first aircraft to have automatic operating leading edge slats? Well it wasn't German and it was well before the war stated....

Half-true. It was German, and it was well before the war started. FYI, leading edge slats are the invention of a WW1 German fighter pilot, who then joined later Handley-Page, and it was the latter who`s company acquired the patent for it (in Britiain).