Corsair vs. BF 109G,K or FW 190's - Aircraft of World War II

16KJV11 · 11-02-2007, 10:58 PM

How would one of the US Navy's top fighters in the Pacific (the Corsair) match up to top aircraft in the Euopean Theatre such as the later BF 109's and FW 190's?

lesofprimus · 11-02-2007, 11:02 PM

Pretty much eat them for lunch...

CPWN · 11-03-2007, 12:25 AM

British test pilot Eric Brown seems ever to say Corsair II is inferior to Fw190A.

comiso90 · 11-03-2007, 12:34 AM

Interview: Captain Eric Brown

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...wn-7136-2.html (Interview: Captain Eric Brown)

.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-03-2007, 12:39 AM

I think overall the Fw 190 and the Corsair would be a pretty good match. Ofcourse at certain alltitudes each one had its advantages. Corsair had the speed and range advantage.

I think it would come down to pilot skill.

I dont like Browns rating system so I take what he has to say with a grain of salt.

comiso90 · 11-03-2007, 12:50 AM

I think aircraft designed from the start as carrier vs. land based are automatically handicapped. If a carrier based aircraft is comparable, it is a engineering victory.

.

Kurfürst · 11-03-2007, 07:00 AM

Which Corsair? Which 190? Which 109...?

Neto · 11-03-2007, 10:42 AM

there is no way to compare these 3 fighters ..

but i think that the fighters that combat in europe may be better that pacific fighters (europe was a very hostile theater more that the pacific) so i think the bf ou fw may be better that corsair.

lesofprimus · 11-03-2007, 11:13 AM

In a "typical" combat, the Fw 190A-8 with normal combat load, and the F4U-1D in similar drag, it really wouldnt be much of a contest.... The Corsair was a much better performer....

If we compare the Fw 190D-9/13 against the -1D, it becomes alittle different to compare, but then, if u take the next generation of Focke Wulf, u have to take the next gen of Corsair, and the F4U-4 is in a class of its own....

However, the pilots who are flying in this "mythical" combat would be the deciding factor...

Micdrow · 11-03-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

However, the pilots who are flying in this "mythical" combat would be the deciding factor...

Very true Les

drgondog · 11-03-2007, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

In a "typical" combat, the Fw 190A-8 with normal combat load, and the F4U-1D in similar drag, it really wouldnt be much of a contest.... The Corsair was a much better performer....

If we compare the Fw 190D-9/13 against the -1D, it becomes alittle different to compare, but then, if u take the next generation of Focke Wulf, u have to take the next gen of Corsair, and the F4U-4 is in a class of its own....

However, the pilots who are flying in this "mythical" combat would be the deciding factor...

Dead on. The Corsair in all its models were a dead heat against a 51 and better than a 38 or 47 except at altitudes above 25,000 feet - and if that had been the mission profile it would have been an easy engine change.

I believe that the Fw190D-13 may have been a better dogfighter at than all of the 47D, 51D, 38L and F4U-4 above 34,000ft but who the hell was going to fight up there when the mission was at 20-26,000 ft - and the 51H fits in next Gen with 47N and F4U-4 - bring it down there and you are in the strike zone of all of our best fighters

drgondog · 11-03-2007, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by comiso90

I think aircraft designed from the start as carrier vs. land based are automatically handicapped. If a carrier based aircraft is comparable, it is a engineering victory.

.

The F4U was virtually a dead heat in a fight with a 51 and given equal pilot skill was better below 15-20K feet - so by definition it was a match in most combat against the 109G and Fw190A6. In the same arena it would do well against the Fw190D-9 (in my opinion) an it would have been well matched by the Me109K above 20,000 feet

Brown had a lot of pilot experience in all these aircraft and deserves respect for his opinions..but in a long running debate (gentlemanly) in which I questioned his rankings of both the P-51 and F4U below the F6F and Fw190 he declared victory on the 190 based on Critical Mach number being higher!

He won our argument because I could never find the Mcr on either the F4U or Fw190... and candidly the debate blurred between objective performance metrics, and the more subject contibution to the war and multi roles.

His argument for placing the F6F above the P-51 was based on the crucial impact against JNAF airpower in Pacific while the 51 was joined by P-47, P-48, Spitfire and Tempest agianst the Luftwaffe..

Jank · 11-03-2007, 12:23 PM

As was already pointed out, it depends which Corsair. The 1-D would have afforded little benefit over the late Thundebolt D with paddle blade. The Dash 4 is another animal. Like comparing the Thunderbolt D to the M.

If you read yhe encounter reports of Pony and Bolt drivers, you will see that a lot of combat in the European Theatre is at higher altitudes. Not so in the Pacific.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/MSWF4UDATA.pdf

JimM · 11-03-2007, 12:34 PM

Umm...any of you guys ever read "I Fought You from The Skies" by Willi Heilmann? He flew 190's in the war.

In the context of experienced pilots...

He said the only thing they were afraid of were the Jugs diving on them from high above. They didn't fear the Mustangs...the Corsairs were more or less the equal of the Mustang...

What does that tell you about a good German pilot facing a Corsair?
Food for thought.

Bud Anderson also said that the 190 was the equal of the Mustang.

drgondog · 11-03-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jank

As was already pointed out, it depends which Corsair. The 1-D would have afforded little benefit over the late Thundebolt D with paddle blade. The Dash 4 is another animal. Like comparing the Thunderbolt D to the M.

Jank - while the paddle blade did improve the Jug's accleration and hence low to medium altitude performance - even the D-25 through 28 would have struggled against the 190 and 109 and F4U-1 all the way from SL through perhaps 20,000 feet. IIRC the first paddle blade was introduced to the 56th Fg starting in January 1944 and didn't reach such outfits as the 355th or 352nd by the time they were replaced with P-51B's...so wide spread use didn't really happen until April/May timeframe

There are a lot of encounter reports of out manuevering Fw190 and Me 109 at high altitude where the performance of the D really kicked in - but not so many on the deck - primarily because that's where a lot of 47s were shot down.
If you read yhe encounter reports of Pony and Bolt drivers, you will see that a lot of combat in the European Theatre is at higher altitudes. Not so in the Pacific.

true - but neither the Jug nor the 51 particularly dominated the Fw or Me109 at low to medium altitudes either

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/MSWF4UDATA.pdf

I would add a point. The F4u-1D was introduced about the time the Paddle Blade was added to the P-47D-10(?) and the R2800-8 boosted the max HP about 12% giving the lighter Corsair and even better comparison against the 51 and the 47.

Having said all this I Do NOT have inflight, performance comparisons to throw at you so consider my comments in that light?

11-02-2007, 10:58 PM	#1
16KJV11 Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Timbuktu Posts: 78	Corsair vs. BF 109G,K or FW 190's How would one of the US Navy's top fighters in the Pacific (the Corsair) match up to top aircraft in the Euopean Theatre such as the later BF 109's and FW 190's? __________________ r2 If you think practicing what you preach is rough, just try preaching what you practice. Last edited by 16KJV11; 11-02-2007 at 10:59 PM. Reason: Clarification

11-02-2007, 11:02 PM	#2
lesofprimus Minister of Whoopass Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi Posts: 16,234	Pretty much eat them for lunch... __________________ Click to View My IL2 Video Tribute to My Grandfather : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzN5RuNNJk

11-03-2007, 12:25 AM	#3
CPWN Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 25	British test pilot Eric Brown seems ever to say Corsair II is inferior to Fw190A. __________________

11-03-2007, 12:34 AM	#4
comiso90 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: FL Posts: 3,097	Interview: Captain Eric Brown http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...wn-7136-2.html (Interview: Captain Eric Brown) . __________________ “Despite the threat of SAMs and increasing visibility on 31 January 1991, one gunship opted to stay and continue to protect the Marines. A SAM subsequently shot down this AC-130H, call sign Spirit 03. All 14 crew members of Spirit 03 perished." Last edited by comiso90; 11-03-2007 at 12:36 AM.

11-03-2007, 12:39 AM	#5
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 31,700	I think overall the Fw 190 and the Corsair would be a pretty good match. Ofcourse at certain alltitudes each one had its advantages. Corsair had the speed and range advantage. I think it would come down to pilot skill. I dont like Browns rating system so I take what he has to say with a grain of salt. __________________ fly boy said: "isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" syscom3 said: "In fact, UAVs are probably far safer than manned aircraft because they are always aware of whats going on and not distracted by things like coffee being spilled on a lap or "whys this light off, is the light bulb burned out?"

11-03-2007, 12:50 AM	#6
comiso90 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: FL Posts: 3,097	I think aircraft designed from the start as carrier vs. land based are automatically handicapped. If a carrier based aircraft is comparable, it is a engineering victory. . __________________ “Despite the threat of SAMs and increasing visibility on 31 January 1991, one gunship opted to stay and continue to protect the Marines. A SAM subsequently shot down this AC-130H, call sign Spirit 03. All 14 crew members of Spirit 03 perished."

11-03-2007, 07:00 AM	#7
Kurfürst Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Aquincum, Pannonia Prima Posts: 735	Which Corsair? Which 190? Which 109...? __________________ __________________________________________________ http://kurfurst.org http://kurfurst.freeforums.org/index.php

11-03-2007, 10:42 AM	#8
Neto Banned Join Date: May 2007 Location: Lisbon Posts: 36	there is no way to compare these 3 fighters .. but i think that the fighters that combat in europe may be better that pacific fighters (europe was a very hostile theater more that the pacific) so i think the bf ou fw may be better that corsair.

11-03-2007, 11:13 AM	#9
lesofprimus Minister of Whoopass Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi Posts: 16,234	In a "typical" combat, the Fw 190A-8 with normal combat load, and the F4U-1D in similar drag, it really wouldnt be much of a contest.... The Corsair was a much better performer.... If we compare the Fw 190D-9/13 against the -1D, it becomes alittle different to compare, but then, if u take the next generation of Focke Wulf, u have to take the next gen of Corsair, and the F4U-4 is in a class of its own.... However, the pilots who are flying in this "mythical" combat would be the deciding factor... __________________ Click to View My IL2 Video Tribute to My Grandfather : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzN5RuNNJk

11-03-2007, 12:23 PM	#13
Jank Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 678	As was already pointed out, it depends which Corsair. The 1-D would have afforded little benefit over the late Thundebolt D with paddle blade. The Dash 4 is another animal. Like comparing the Thunderbolt D to the M. If you read yhe encounter reports of Pony and Bolt drivers, you will see that a lot of combat in the European Theatre is at higher altitudes. Not so in the Pacific. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/MSWF4UDATA.pdf __________________ August 12, 1944 - In an armor cover mission at the Falaise track, Charlie Rife, 368th FG, 395th FS, takes 37mm fllak rounds to both wings. His wingman, Richard Kik, takes a 20mm round to the engine that knocks out two cylinders. Both make it back. Last edited by Jank; 11-03-2007 at 12:30 PM.

11-03-2007, 12:34 PM	#14
JimM Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 14	Umm...any of you guys ever read "I Fought You from The Skies" by Willi Heilmann? He flew 190's in the war. In the context of experienced pilots... He said the only thing they were afraid of were the Jugs diving on them from high above. They didn't fear the Mustangs...the Corsairs were more or less the equal of the Mustang... What does that tell you about a good German pilot facing a Corsair? Food for thought. Bud Anderson also said that the 190 was the equal of the Mustang.

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