Corsair vs FW190

[Glider]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Glider - If I had the power to do so - I would have stolen the Mg151/20 designs and armed every Allied Fighter with at least two, preferably four, to replace the 50s (and Hispano's)

Personally I prefer the Hispano V to the 151/20 but I can understand the reasons.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by davparlr

There was discussion on upgrading the 50 cals with 20mm at the Joint Fighter Conference in 1944, supported by both AAF and Navy combat pilots. The consensus was that, for the combat faced by the US forces, the 50 cal were quite sufficient for doing the job and they did not recommend upgrading the armament. This was recommendations by those whose life depended on weapons performance.

I don't disagree with this statement at all. However, had the USA been faced with large numbers of B17 let alone B29 bombers, I am willing to bet a penny to a pound they would have changed their minds.
Its worth remembering that all F6F5 Hellcats were designed so they could be armed with 2 x 20 and 4 x 0.5 HMG's. Maybe the USN were willing to hedge their bets a little.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by HellToupee

Heh I would choose the .50s to if the alternative 20mm was the American produced hispano :P

I don't think they were considering reliability here, only the effectiveness of their 50 cals. I assure you that if they did not have faith in the effectiveness of the 50 cals they would be screaming.

[timshatz]

[QUOTE=drgondog;458333]

With the caveat that these two ships were NOT flying in identical mission profiles, the Mustang had a superior kill ratio air to air and a lower loss ratio of US Fighter lost versus German Fighter aircraft destroyed on the ground.

[QUOTE]
DD, that paragraph says it all. If both were in identical missions, then the statistical analysis would hold relevance. But given that the Mustang gravitated towards deep escort while the Thunderbolt was relegated to ground attack (for a number of reasons), the viability of comparing statistics has it's limits.

One telling point is the swap that occured between the 9th and 8th AF with regards to P51s and P47s.

[drgondog]

[QUOTE=timshatz;458570][QUOTE=drgondog;458333]

With the caveat that these two ships were NOT flying in identical mission profiles, the Mustang had a superior kill ratio air to air and a lower loss ratio of US Fighter lost versus German Fighter aircraft destroyed on the ground.

DD, that paragraph says it all. If both were in identical missions, then the statistical analysis would hold relevance. But given that the Mustang gravitated towards deep escort while the Thunderbolt was relegated to ground attack (for a number of reasons), the viability of comparing statistics has it's limits.

One telling point is the swap that occured between the 9th and 8th AF with regards to P51s and P47s.

Tim - Agreed - but the swap has its own sidebars.

The 354FG screamed when they lost the Mustang for Jug in November, 1944 and rejoiced when they got Mustangs back in late February 1945.

The reason the 9th was forced to take the Jugs and Lightnings wasn't because they preferred them, per se - but 8th AF re-equip along with 15th AF demands and PTO demands for long range fighters put a strain on P-51 Supply. As you know the 8th AF did not complete the transition until December 1944 (except for 56th FG)

I Do believe the 9th did just fine with the Jug and have no problem contemplating higher survival for the TAC mission than the 51 - but we truly don't know for sure.

[renrich]

I have speculated to myself how effective an armament package for the Corsair would have been with two fifties mounted well aft over the fuel tank and two 20mms in the wing roots, all four firing through the prop arc. The fuselage tank would lose capacity but the room saved in the wings where the six fifties had been could be used for SS fuel tanks which would more than make up for the shrinkage in the fuselage tank. Of course a fair number of Corsairs had four 20mms but apparently the Navy wasn't sold on them until the F4U5-7. Another factor about the FW, especially as a bomber killer is the poor visibility forward which precluded full deflection shooting, as noted in the comparison by the Navy with the Hellcat and Corsair. The Corsair had the ability to make all of the full deflection runs, both overheads and the high side, flat side and low side runs which were highly desirable when attacking a bomber. In contrast the only full deflection run the FW could make was the overhead from the rear. It therefore was stuck with the low deflection or no deflection runs from the rear or ahead. The ahead run gave the defensive guns a simple solution and allowed not much time to shoot and the run from the rear gave the defensive guns maximum opportunity and was the most dangerous for the attacking fighter.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Again it's just a game and not real life, but in Il Sturmovik the engine will stop working on a P-51 from just a few hits.

I think in real life the P-51 also had this weakness, because it wasn't as well protected as the P-47 from bullets.

A cannon on a P-51 would hae been a good thing I think.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soundbreaker Welch?

Again it's just a game and not real life, but in Il Sturmovik the engine will stop working on a P-51 from just a few hits.

There is no basis one way or the other for game assumptions to approach reality on Lethality and Vulnerability.

I think in real life the P-51 also had this weakness, because it wasn't as well protected as the P-47 from bullets.

Well, it was smaller and more agile (in General). The well documented disadvantages was the supply/return plumbing for coolant, and the the radiator/oil cooler in same location - so one hit in either for a 20mm would do it.

A cannon on a P-51 would hae been a good thing I think.

I have talked to more than a few LW pilots who were shot down (and survived obviously) that would Disagree with you - Lol. Depends on your point of view.

I believe that the combination of the K-14 and 20mm would have achieved superior results if RAF Hispano or Mg151. The US 20mm had jamming issues into the Korean War.

[HellToupee]

Spitfires with the Ferranti sight had a huge increase in effectiveness.

I don't think they were considering reliability here, only the effectiveness of their 50 cals. I assure you that if they did not have faith in the effectiveness of the 50 cals they would be screaming.

It would consern everything, pilots also tend to choose what they know, eg Bader preferred the 8 303s to the 20mm cannon.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by HellToupee

It would consern everything, pilots also tend to choose what they know, eg Bader preferred the 8 303s to the 20mm cannon.

Yes, the 50s were all they knew, but it does imply that, when their life was on the line, they were happy with the 50s, and this was not just one opinion.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by renrich

I have speculated to myself how effective an armament package for the Corsair would have been with two fifties mounted well aft over the fuel tank and two 20mms in the wing roots, all four firing through the prop arc.

There is some loss of rate of fire due to the interrupter gear. I think I read in one of the post that it was about a 25% reduction. Concentration of fire should be very effective.

[delcyros]

How many after action reports are aviable for US ETO escort fighters. Out of interest spoken, are enough information aviable, from a sample of a single unit with a specific timeframe wrt to:

A) number of rounds (.50al, P-47 and P-51 only) expanded for kill
B) approximate type of enemy aircraft shot down
C) approximate distance of aircraft shot down
D) weapon suite used (four, six or eight 0.50cal), preferably with type of ammunition

This would allow us to try a quantitative approach, e.g. a factor analyis.

[timshatz]

Delc, here are some that I picked up from this web site some time back. They are Mustang reports. Not sure if they have the info your looking for but I hope they help.

Mustang Encounter Reports

[delcyros]

Perfect, timshatz!

This does qualify as a sample base. Datacollection and analysis will take some time. When I resurface, we will have the analysis.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by delcyros

Perfect, timshatz!

This does qualify as a sample base. Datacollection and analysis will take some time. When I resurface, we will have the analysis.

Delcyros - Mike also has P-47 encounter reports.

In general - start fire and stop fire rage estimate along with total number of rounds fired are part of the report.

There will always be a location, time, cloud cover, and most of the time general heading for start of engagement.

Almost all the post 1943 ammo is API with some tracer depending on pilot.

my father did not like to use tracer.