Corsair vs Zero

[Soren]

Again i say the ailerons on the 'A6M5' wouldnt fall off !! And neither would the elevators, they wouldnt even fall off on the A6M2 at high speed turns

The 'A6M5' would turn inside 'ANY' Spitfire model at any speed, but it wouldnt roll as fast as the Spitfire at high speed (even with clipped wings)


Read: British Warplanes of World War II. This book explains how the Spitfires first faired when they met the Zero (Not good).

Also remember the defence of Darwin !

[plan_D]

No it wouldn't turn inside the Spitfire at any speeds. Since when? The Zero couldn't do bugger all at high speeds (300 mph and above with the Zero)! The Spitfire could come in nearing 400 mph and the Zero wouldn't stand a chance because it couldn't turn or roll above 300 mph! The ZERO was useless beyond 300 mph! Everyone, and every piece of history says so. Even the Zero pilots said they wouldn't try and turn above 300 mph...

[Soren]

Originally Posted by plan_D

No it wouldn't turn inside the Spitfire at any speeds. Since when? The Zero couldn't do bugger all at high speeds (300 mph and above with the Zero)! The Spitfire could come in nearing 400 mph and the Zero wouldn't stand a chance because it couldn't turn or roll above 300 mph! The ZERO was useless beyond 300 mph! Everyone, and every piece of history says so. Even the Zero pilots said they wouldn't try and turn above 300 mph...

Give me ONE source just ONE, that says the elevators would freeze in high speeds ! (If you can i will rest my case But you can't because there isnt any )

Sanders report from 42 just reports the ailerons getting stiff, and rolls at 250kt are very hard ! like every other report !

[plan_D]

Where...anywhere...did I state that the elevators stiffen? Do you think it's only the elevators that say if the aircraft can turn tightly or not?

[Soren]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Where...anywhere...did I state that the elevators stiffen? Do you think it's only the elevators that say if the aircraft can turn tightly or not?

To put it simple:

The elevators are the ones that pull the plane upwards and downwards, and they are also the ones you use to turn the plane, after you have rolled your plane to either direction. The elevators are triggered when you pull back on the stick !

So when your Zero is rolled to the left, you pull back the stick wich will be easy 'also' at high speed

Also remember that the A6M5 was much stronger in its body than the A6M2. Hey just compare the dive speed limit of the two model's ! :

Dive speed limit.

A6M2: 380mph

A6M5: 460mph

[plan_D]

Well, your mind is stupidly simple then. Because the slenderness of plane, how easily air flows over the aircraft, the strength of the aircraft, how far the elevators can be pulled, the engine torque, the speed...ALL have to be taken into account when making an aircraft turn.

[R Leonard]

Flight sim BS. My friend, you either only think you know how an airplane works or you are simply and deliberately obscurantist. When evidence is presented as to the high speed failure of the ailerons in the A6M design, from people (plural) who actually flew the damn thing, A6M2's and A6M5's, you launch off into a discussion of elevators. HOT FLASH! All these things must work in concert, ailerons, elevators, rudder in order to execute a turn. Must work in concert . . . that means all together and at the same time . . . get that part? Any failure of one of them means the entire maneuver fails. I doubt anyone will find any comments regarding A6M elevator performance as there wasn't much point in discussing a non-issue vis-a-vis the the lack of aileron control at high speed, i.e., if forces on the ailerons preclude a roll, then there is no turn and no point in worrying about what the elevators are or are not doing. Your elevator arguments are red herrings.

Let's see you come up with legitimate sources (hasn't that been asked before?) that confirm your theses. Not your opinion, mind you, but something concrete from someone, preferably with A6M flight experience, that supports you contentions. And something quotable, if you please, not just some vague reference. Just as you challenge for sources on elevators, I challenge you for sources in general. And if you can't produce them, since you believe any lack of sources in views opposing yours buttresses your position, then in the absence of your presenting sources, then, you, too, must be mistaken.

Rich

[Soren]

What i think has happened here judging from your rudeness ! is that there has been an missunderstanding.

Sure, Aileron and Elevator work in concert to make a turn: The aileron puts the plane into the right position to make the turn, afterwords the elevator takes over to pull the plane into a tight turn. Thats how it works !

What my arguement is all about, is that once the Zero has been put into position to turn, then NO allied aircraft can follow it, nomatter what speed.

Maby this is an unworthy advantage to mention, as the Zero cant make fast rolls at high speeds, i dont know.

Anyhow there's no need to get rude !

About the sources... they are the same as yours buddy ! Sanders report from 42 and The US Army Air Forces "Informational Intelligence Summary.

[R Leonard]

Sigh . . .

Your contention is/was the A6M could out turn the Spitfire and any other adversary at high speed.

All the evidence and experience points to an inability of the A6M to execute at roll at speeds in excess of 300 mph.

You continue to stipulate that this was untrue. Your source, please. And the intelligence reports, which I might add, I went to the trouble to transcribe, do not, at all, support your position. How about you find and transcribe something that does.

And you say

. . . once the Zero has been put into position to turn, then NO allied aircraft can follow it, nomatter what speed

And I ask, just how does an A6M get in that postion to turn at high speed without aileron controlled roll? Your statement is a nonsequitur.

If you find the bald truth to be insulting or rude then there's not much I can do about that.

Rich

[Soren]

Sigh.....

I never questioned the fact that at over 300mph, the Zero wouldnt be able make fast rolls

However if the Zero already was in position to turn, meaning one of its wings were pointing downwards and then starts to turn, then there's nothing that can follow it The low wingloading will see to that

[plan_D]

Actually, in a turn you do not just pull the stick back because the aircraft tends to drop. I don't know if you've ever seen an aircraft pull an extended turn, but the plane rocks up and down as the pilot corrects it with aileron moves.

[Soren]

Your absolutely correct However those small corrections in flight aint at all significant ! But your right nonetheless.

[plan_D]

They actually make a lot of difference, plus you use your rudder.

Anyway, Rich is right. The Zero couldn't even get into position above 300 mph, and it's not going to be speeding up from 275 mph while banking.

[R Leonard]

Getting the wings into some position other than horizontal, i.e., roll, and for fast turning that requires close to vertical, is required to make a turn. If you can't get there in the first place, then there's no turn. You keep trying to put the aircraft into a position it cannot achieve in order to make some dubious point. At high speed, the A6M was not going to be able to initiate the roll necessary for a turn . . . no initiation, no turn. Therefore it could not be already in your supposed attitude to out turn anyone. And that, my friend, is the point. It simply couldn't do what you claim it could do. You can't magically have an A6M, wings vertical, at 300 mph and say, "okay, we'll start here." Further, I'd suggest that even if you could do that, you can probably kiss one or both wings good-bye . . . the airplane obviously wasn't built to handle that kind of stress. If it were, you'd be able to execute the meneuver from the beginning. Any you can't. QED.

Still waiting for your sources.

Rich

[Soren]

Haha !!

Are you litteraly saying the Zero couldnt roll at all at over 300mph ??

The sources ?? What do you need sources on ?? What claimes have i made that you need a source on ??