Could a Lancaster bomber perform a barrel loop?

[trackend]

Blimey Chris bet that was spectacular

[MickMcM]

Many thanks for all of your responses. As a novice screenwriter, I now realise that I'm going to have to seriously revise my opening scene.

It would have helped if my Lancaster, to escape an FW-190, could have somehow turned the tables on it's adversary by attempting some theoretically possible but highly unorthodox manoeuvre demonstrating the outstanding skill of my pilot, the hero. He's already tried to shake off the fighter with a "corkscrew". Maybe I'll stick with that.

Thanks everyone,
Michael

[gumbyk]

From what I understand, most, if not all aircraft could perform a barrell roll. Aren't they meant to be only positive g's and max out at around 3g? Aerobatics Figures

I wouldn't want to be pulling an aileron roll on somethig like a lanc (with the negative g's), but a barrell roll IMO would be a definite possibility.

[MickMcM]

Ah. I'm not using the correct terminology. I mean a loop – the "barrel" part was the problem.

The aircraft climbs, looping over and backwards until it becomes inverted, then descends out of it on the other side back to level flight but ending up in the original direction of travel? Sorry if this isn't very clear but my knowledge of aviation is quite limited – just pointing out the obvious there.

Would a Lanc. have been capable of performing that manoeuvre?

Thanks for your patience, guys. This is really important and my sanity may depend on it!

[gumbyk]

If it did, it would probably never fly again. My guess is that it wouldn't have the power to get over the top, without having too much airspeed from a dive, and over-stressing the airframe.

[vikingBerserker]

I would think with enough speed and altitude it could be done, now if the wings would stay on or not...eh

[Matt308]

I always love the reference to Tex's barrel roll of the Boeing 367 (707). He did that at a Seafair celebration (hydro-races) in the Seattle area. And now for the part of the story you don't hear.

He also bent the $hit out of the wings. Permanently. And was lucky he didn't lose the airplane.

All planes can barrel roll. Once.

[Airframes]

There used to be an old gentleman who frequented my local pub, very well respected, and I believe reached the rank of Squadron Leader. Unfortunately, he passed away 18 months ago, so I'm unable to ask him to re-tell the account of him looping a Lancaster.
This event was totally unintententional, and happened as result of evasive action during an operation over Germany, as far as I remember, in early 1944. He had been attacked by a night fighter and, begining the evasive manouvre known as a 'corkscrew', had started to pull up and to starboard, when cannon shells hit the rear of the aircraft, according to the tail gunner's warning, along the port elevator and tailplane. 'Jock', the pilot, then tried to reverse his turn and climb, to enter the second part of the twisting 'corkscrew', only to find that the Lancaster (which had already dropped its bombs, incidentally), continued to climb, eventually 'falling off' the top of the loop, and going into a rather steep dive, which took quite a few thousand feet before recovery was effected.
When they eventually landed, and inspected the damaged Lanc, it was found that the port elevator controls had been severly damaged, along with the rudder, leaving partial control movement to the starboard elevator and rudder only.
The main wings had received extensive stress damage, and were rippled across their entire span, with the dihedral increased, at the centre section to main plane joints, by a consdireble degree.
'Jock' never flew this particular Lanc again, and as far as he knew, it was written of due to this action.
In his own words he was, as far as he was able to ascertain, the only person to loop a Lancaster and survive.

[fibus]

Thank you.
Alex Henshaw.
Sigh for a Merlin.
Read the book.

[MickMcM]

Appreciate the many useful contributions – looks like my hero won't be looping then!

MickMcM

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I always love the reference to Tex's barrel roll of the Boeing 367 (707). He did that at a Seafair celebration (hydro-races) in the Seattle area. And now for the part of the story you don't hear.

He also bent the $hit out of the wings. Permanently. And was lucky he didn't lose the airplane.

All planes can barrel roll. Once.

Here is video of that one:

YouTube - Tex Johnston rolls a 707

[timshatz]

There used to be an old gentleman who frequented my local pub, very well respected, and I believe reached the rank of Squadron Leader. Unfortunately, he passed away 18 months ago, so I'm unable to ask him to re-tell the account of him looping a Lancaster.
This event was totally unintententional, and happened as result of evasive action during an operation over Germany, as far as I remember, in early 1944. He had been attacked by a night fighter and, begining the evasive manouvre known as a 'corkscrew', had started to pull up and to starboard, when cannon shells hit the rear of the aircraft, according to the tail gunner's warning, along the port elevator and tailplane. 'Jock', the pilot, then tried to reverse his turn and climb, to enter the second part of the twisting 'corkscrew', only to find that the Lancaster (which had already dropped its bombs, incidentally), continued to climb, eventually 'falling off' the top of the loop, and going into a rather steep dive, which took quite a few thousand feet before recovery was effected.
When they eventually landed, and inspected the damaged Lanc, it was found that the port elevator controls had been severly damaged, along with the rudder, leaving partial control movement to the starboard elevator and rudder only.
The main wings had received extensive stress damage, and were rippled across their entire span, with the dihedral increased, at the centre section to main plane joints, by a consdireble degree.
'Jock' never flew this particular Lanc again, and as far as he knew, it was written of due to this action.
In his own words he was, as far as he was able to ascertain, the only person to loop a Lancaster and survive.

Sounds right. Also very hairy. Gotta be young to do that.

Lucky Jock.

[timshatz]

Appreciate the many useful contributions – looks like my hero won't be looping then!

MickMcM

Suggest you keep the Lanc in a corkscrew to the ground. At low level, the Lanc is covering his vulnerable belly from the fighter and forcing him into attacking from behind or above. Can't dive past on his attacks, which really limits what the 190 can do. Further, if the pilot is listening to his gunners, he can break into the attack, giving the fighter a constantly changing gunnery solution (granted, on a very big target) that is going to make life tougher. He can make life difficult for the fighter, but not impossible if the fighter knows his business.

The only way I can think of turning the tables on the fighter is if the 190 gets going on a overhead and above pass from astern. The tailgunner calls it out and the pilot chops the throttle, pops the flaps (might even drop the gear) and litterally stops the Lanc in midair. For the 190, which had horrible vis looking straight ahead, it would appear that the Lanc just dropped out of sight below his cowling. Only way to find it would be to roll up on the side and look down through the side windows/canopy. But if the break is done at the right time (and the fighter gets sloppy), there is a possibility that the fighter will end up in front of the lanc in a pullout. But he'll be going very fast and the bomber will be going very slow.

[MickMcM]

Timshatz
This is very interesting.

Because in one of the earlier scenarios I had the Lanc. going right down to sea-level because 1/2 of his engines had been shot up by the FW-190. Unbeknownst to my fighter pilot, who the audience might naturally assume is new to this type of fighter, the FW-190 had a fault whereby if the powerful, variable incidence tailplane trim mechanism is left in the "nose heavy" position the aircraft could not recover from the dive in time (Source: Wikipedia – I think).

The only problem with it was that it didn't necessarily establish my Lancaster pilot's brilliant flying credentials right from scene 1.

Greatly appreciate you offering your thoughts on a solution to my problem, though.

[timshatz]

Mick, was thinking about it and losing two engines on any four engined bomber makes it a sitting duck. Lose the manuvering envelope as well as speed. A Lanc, at full power, on the deck might make 240mph. Figure the 190 has a 125mph advantage on it. He can swing around in front, but by using speed (which translates into manuvering abilitiy), the Lanc can turn to give him a tougher shot and his gunners a better shot too. Plus, it takes more time and fuel to do it. Only so many passes you will get on a fast moving bomber on the deck.

Once you lose those two engines, you lose the that ability and you are fighting to stay in the air. Might be making 140mph or so. 190 is still up at 375 on the top end so he can pick where he wants to make his shot (which will probably be where the fewest guns are on him and gave him the best chance of hit). A beam attack, most likely, with a headon attack being another viable option (going for the flight crew in the cockpit).

In short, lose those two engines and this thing is a waddling target. If the 190 can't pop it in a short and violent pass, he's just not ready for prime time.