Could the Luftwaffe survive against Allied attacks if the USSR had been defeated?

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by delcyros

I overlaid the 2000ft. and 1000ft. radius of blast over Hamburg (3rd picture) and it doesn´t even cover the old, 14th century area ofthe city (yellow line), not to speak of ww2 area. All of Hamburg is build from structures comparable to those of Hieroshima, which remained standing. A nuke would just reassemble the debris caused by the various conventional bombing raids that city was subject to. It would -in my opinion- not have the power to wipe out large cities as long as the building structure was NOT WOODEN. Nagasaki and Hiroshima are not very large cities.
Please note also the image taken from Hieroshima at ground zero: The area destruction effect caused by blast and heat effects is remarkable and frightening but The concrete buildings do not show much damage, as a matter of fact, they remain standing (1st picture).

I overlaid historic photographs of Nagasaki before & after the bomb with the current google earth picture (see below, 2nd picure). Note that the destructive force reduces greatly at a distance to point zero: At 1000ft. distance, bridges remained standing, at 1500 ft. distance, large factory buildings (no. 17) were heavy damaged but not destroyed.
It would require a nuke with a figure of merit of 60 to 80 compared to that dropped over Nagasaki to wipe out Hamburg.

I assure you that an atomic bomb blast in the middle of any German city would have stunned and paralyzed the Germans. It would have been felt and seen and heard for miles around. Those building you see standing were reinforced, earthquake-proof structures. I doubt any of the German buildings had that type of reinforcements. Most were probably brick/stone, which, people from my neck of the woods, So. California, know are very poor at shearing forces such as earthquake and horrific wind.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by davparlr

Like I said, I didn't understand what this had to do with stall characteristics, anyway.

Did I mention it ? I just responded to what Delcyros said.

That magic wand. It was not much more than a paper plane.

Nope, no magic wand. The Germans were way ahead in transsonic research and high speed aerodynamics, and by 45 they had a very good understanding of the transsonic region and even the supersonic one.

This would have been invaluable and could have been the first swept wing fighter, but it would have taken awhile to integrate to get the data and integrate it into the 183. I still don't believe it would have been viable until late '46. Just too much of a technology leap. Did that engine ever work well? It seemed like a kludge.

If the war had went on a year then there's no reason to believe that Ta-183 wouldn't have made it. Remember how long it took from idea to realization with the He-162.

If that tail mounted surface provided some stabilization, which it probably did, instability problems would probably occur.

Well seeing that the Ta-183 used elevons I really don't see any real problems occuring. The Me-163 didn't even have any horizontal stabilizer.

I am not sure the Me-163 had to do very much low speed, high alpha maneuvering like the 183 would have to do. The Ta-183 seemed pretty close coupled in pitch, but then, so did the Northrop XP-56.

Davparlr the Me-163 glided back home to land so you can be pretty sure that a lot of slow speed maneuvering was done with that a/c, and according to it's pilots it maneuvered excellently.

The Me-163 featured integrated wing slots btw.

[kool kitty89]

The slots would have increased drag considerably though, wouldn't they? (iirc indicuded drag resulting from slots wasn't a problem, but the parasite drag at gh speed would be)

[delcyros]

Originally Posted by davparlr

I assure you that an atomic bomb blast in the middle of any German city would have stunned and paralyzed the Germans. It would have been felt and seen and heard for miles around. Those building you see standing were reinforced, earthquake-proof structures. I doubt any of the German buildings had that type of reinforcements. Most were probably brick/stone, which, people from my neck of the woods, So. California, know are very poor at shearing forces such as earthquake and horrific wind.

I respect you differing opinion but remain unchangd in my disagreeing.
The bombings of London didn´t paralized the british, the unparalleled bombings of Coventry just heartened resistence. The fire-bombings of Hamburg didn´t paralized the citizen and a nuke wouldn´t have don either.
We in Germany call surviving houses of pre-ww2 period in the cities "Altbau", because they do differ greatly from more recently build houses in construction and wall thickness. They are stone-brick constructions but very strong and uncomparable to US light brick constructions. Heck when I measure the wall at the window, right next to my desk, I come out with 19.6" deepness! This wall is not certified as earthquake proof but sure, it´s tough. Not shear forces are applied at nuke bombs but blast (pressure) effects, radiation, em-impulses and heat.
Stone-brick cancel two of the four out (EM is rather unimportant here, too) and offers more resistence to blast than any wooden frame building.
At Hieroshima, a number of wooden frame building remained standing at 3.1 to 3.5 psi overpressure.
The rather stronger ~20 Kt Nagasaki-bomb mentioned above developed 10psi at 3.700 ft., 5 psi at 5.800 ft., dropping to 3.0 psi at 8.500 ft. distance to point zero.
Any damage to buildings below 3 psi is unlikely, it would translate to only 150 Km/h windfactors (not uncommon at very heavy storms). I personally expect a pressure of at least 8 psi to show significant results on typical urban constructions as those employed in Hamburg.
You can try Yourselfe:
Federation of American Scientists :: Nuclear Weapon Effects Calculator

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by Soren

Did I mention it ? I just responded to what Delcyros said.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did.

Nope, no magic wand. The Germans were way ahead in transsonic research and high speed aerodynamics, and by 45 they had a very good understanding of the transsonic region and even the supersonic one.

Understanding does not necessarily lead to success. History if full of failures in the presence of theoretical understanding.

If the war had went on a year then there's no reason to believe that Ta-183 wouldn't have made it. Remember how long it took from idea to realization with the He-162.

I don't buy it. Even Tank and his team had difficulties with the design. The He-182 was basically a conventional design with only the jet engine being being particularly unique.

Well seeing that the Ta-183 used elevons I really don't see any real problems occuring. The Me-163 didn't even have any horizontal stabilizer.

It seems to be quite a sophisticated and complex design just for trim. I suspect it also provided some stablization.

Davparlr the Me-163 glided back home to land so you can be pretty sure that a lot of slow speed maneuvering was done with that a/c, and according to it's pilots it maneuvered excellently.

The Me-163 featured integrated wing slots btw.

I think it landed like the space shuttle. With no power you don't want to be using much speed killing maneuvers. I would suspect almost all maneuvering was at rather high speed.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by delcyros

I respect you differing opinion but remain unchangd in my disagreeing.

While I agree that the damage impact would not be great, certainly compared to previous airbourne attacks (I do think you are underestimating the damage, though), I think you are not addressing the psychological impacts. This would have been an event never seen before in Germany. Briliant light, incredible noise, huge cloud, tens of thousands dead, all instantaneous, all visible and heard for miles around. You have to remember, Japan had also seen horrendous bombings including firebombing of its cities and still resisted. They did not resist when they saw what damage one bomb could do. I do not think the Germans would have reacted in a less intelligent manner.

[Messy1]

I believe it still comes down to a war of attrition, and it is one that Germany can not win facing all the nations that were opposing Germany. It would still lose the battle in the Atlantic, and once it did, allied supplies could come over to Europe almost unopposed.

[syscom3]

If Germany is going to survive, It will need to defeat the allied invasion of France in 1944. And the LW will need to maintain air superiority throughtout 1944, well into the fall of 1944.

They couldnt, thus the clock is ticking for Germany the moment the allies land.

No matter what the scientists in Germany cook up, none of it would be available untill well into the end of 1945, when it would be irrelevant.

[delcyros]

If the war had went on a year then there's no reason to believe that Ta-183 wouldn't have made it. Remember how long it took from idea to realization with the He-162.

It is a common misbelief that the ralization of the He-162 was that short. As a matter of fact, Heinkel did extensive preliminary works on a plane called He-500 since late 1943. These works included many windtunnel studies and detail constructions and must be regarded as the root of the He-162. When the Volksjäger specifications were issued by the RLM on sept., 10th, 1944, Heinkel used the 10 days construction time to modify the He-500 according to the RLM requirements. The RLM didn´t choosed the most promising or the simpliest but the most developed proposal.

Well seeing that the Ta-183 used elevons I really don't see any real problems occuring. The Me-163 didn't even have any horizontal stabilizer.

Your opinion differs from that of the EHK in a discussion of the single engined jet fighters dating to feb. 22, 1944. The elevons of the Ta-183 in combination of high sweep & ar were considered likely to give trouble at high mach fractions (including the possibility of "Umkehrwirkung").