Death Trap Aircraft

[bomber]

Yeh the death trap debate is a funny one...

I believe the stats say that if you had to bail out of a Halifax or Lancaster you'd choose a Halifax.. The stat also say that you're more likely to bail out of a Halifax than a Lancaster...

My vote for Deathtrap goes to the Avro Manchester, all the negative features of the Lanc and so underpowered it's a wonder it got in the air...

Simon

[redcoat]

Originally Posted by R988

Hurricanes also got a bit of a reputation for burning pilots, though they usually got out alive. I guess Japanese aircraft probably burnt quite a few as well.

This was during the Battle Of Britain, and it was due to the fact that when the British modified the fuel tanks on their fighters to be self-sealing they didn't modify the fuel tank between the engine and the pilot on the Hurricane, as it was difficult to get at, and it was considered protected by its position.
However it was soon realised that this was a mistake, and the RAF started modifying the fuel tanks during the battle itself, so by the end of the battle all the Hurricanes had been modified in this way, solving the problem.


ps Shame on you all,
Up to page 3 on death trap aircraft, and no-one has yet mentioned the Me 163 Komet.
It was such a death trap, it was even a danger to the ground crews.
Even re-fuelling it was dangerous.

[JeffK]

Boulton Paul Defiant.

Did a Gunner EVER bail out of a Defiant, I looked at a lot of cases and didnt see 1 succesful escape.

[k9kiwi]

The Defiant had two ways out, through the front of the turret, and via the hatch in the lower rear fuselage.

How about the Blenhiem from a Gunners perspective

Here you did your first flying in Blenheims, a most uncomfortable aircraft, not one which you could get out of easily if you were in trouble, and thankfully no-one on our course experienced it. You had to climb over a main spar to get to the turret, and could not wear a parachute harness, which was disconcerting to say the least; quite honestly the Blenheim was a death trap.

from BBC Peoples War

[Glider]

Wasn't it the Ki84 that didn't have an emergency release for the canopy

[quayhog]

I don't think the PV-1 Ventura was a death trap. It didn't provide the Brits with any operational advantage over any other aircraft they had to choose from so they gave it back to the US. The lend lease returned aircraft flew as the PV-3, mostly with training command and US inshore patrols. The USAAF had a similar quandry and abandoned its use. The USN found the Ventura's niche as a medium range patrol bomber. The crews who flew the aircraft loved it after they figured out its quirks. It could absorb significant battle damage and return its crew safely. The Ventura did have a very high wing loading and if you didn't treat it with respect it could kill you quickly.

My dad flew the PV (as a command pilot) several hundreds of hours during 1943-44 with VB-144 out of Tarawa. He had nothing but good things to say about the PV.

[Smokey]

The g4M Betty, or flying cigar. The poor guys in those had little chance

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by quayhog

I don't think the PV-1 Ventura was a death trap. It didn't provide the Brits with any operational advantage over any other aircraft they had to choose from so they gave it back to the US. The lend lease returned aircraft flew as the PV-3, mostly with training command and US inshore patrols. The USAAF had a similar quandry and abandoned its use. The USN found the Ventura's niche as a medium range patrol bomber. The crews who flew the aircraft loved it after they figured out its quirks. It could absorb significant battle damage and return its crew safely. The Ventura did have a very high wing loading and if you didn't treat it with respect it could kill you quickly.

My dad flew the PV (as a command pilot) several hundreds of hours during 1943-44 with VB-144 out of Tarawa. He had nothing but good things to say about the PV.

Very cool! I'm a former Lockheed employee (Burbank) and heard a lot of the old timers talk well about the Ventura. Some even shot down Zeros! I guess the Ventura also had some structural wing problems that were corrected when the PV-2 Harpoon was built...

The Marines also used them as a night fighter and I know they had a few kills as well.

[quayhog]

VPNAVY - VP-144 Crew Summary Page - VP Patrol Squadron
VPNAVY - VP-144 History Summary Page - VP Patrol Squadron

Links are for a picture of my dad and crew (with PV-1) and also some squadron history that was released by the Navy Department in 1944. I found all this stuff in my dad's personal records. With his permission I provided the documents to the VPNavy web site for public view.

There is a restored ex USN Ventura in a museum in New Zealand. There is also an RCAF one being recovered somewhere from a northern Canadian crash site.

Jonathan Horne

[FLYBOYJ]

Very very cool!!! I'm on that site! I was in VP-65.

[plan_D]

"It didn't provide the Brits with any operational advantage over any other aircraft they had to choose from so they gave it back to the US."

No, the 2nd TAF removed the Ventura from front-line service because not only did it offer no advantage over other types in service, but it was worse than other types in service. And was shot down in droves. They found it to be terrible, and I've provided the quote from AVM Embry that says as much.

[FLYBOYJ]

"The Ventura had the same overall configuration as the Hudson which preceded it, but it was somewhat larger, heavier, and more powerful. As compared to the Hudson, the dorsal turret was moved forward to improve the field of fire. Early production aircraft had two 0.303-inch machine guns installed in this turret, but later production aircraft increased this to four. Twin flexible 0.303-inch machine guns were mounted in the extreme nose. A pair of flexible 0.303-inch machine guns were mounted in a ventral position behind the wing trailing edge. This gun position gave a distinct kink to the aft fuselage. Two fixed forward-firing 0.50-inch machine guns were installed in the upper decking of the nose. A bomb load of 2500 pounds could be carried in the internal bay. Internal fuel capacity was reduced from 644 US gallons in the Lodestar to 565 US gallons for the Ventura. As on the Lodestar, a set of Fowler flaps were installed on the wing trailing edge, extending all the way from the ailerons inward to the fuselage. When fully extended, these flaps increased the wing area from 551 to 619 square feet.

The first Ventura (AE658 ) took off on its maiden flight at the Lockheed Air Terminal on July 31, 1941. Although the dorsal turret was mounted, no armament was actually fitted. The Ventura I (Model 37-21-01) was powered by a pair of 1850 hp Pratt & Whitney S1A4-G Double Wasps. 188 were delivered under the original British contract, with serials being AE658/AE845. One (AE662) was fitted with a pair of 2200 hp Wright R-3350 engines as a testbed for the engine installation in the Constellation transport. It had a shortened nose to permit propeller clearance.

Deliveries of Venturas to Britain began in September of 1941. 21 of the early production run of Ventura Is (AE658, AE659, AE661, AE663/AE674, AE676/AE678, AE696, AE703 and AE728 ) were retained in Canada for the RCAF. At least six (AE690, AE694, AE727, AE752, AE754, AE765) were transferred to the South African Air Force.

The Ventura II (Model 37-27-01) was generally similar to the Ventura I, but was powered by 2000 hp Pratt & Whitney R-2800-31s instead of the Double Wasp S1A4-Gs of the Mark I version. It had a redesigned bomb bay capable of carrying 3000 pounds of bombs or 780-gallon ferry tanks. Production totaled 487 aircraft (the 112 aircraft of AE846/AE957 which filled out the remainder of the original British contract, plus the 375 aircraft in the second contract AJ163/AJ537). Only 196 Ventura IIs actually reached Commonwealth forces, with 264 (among these AJ235/AJ442) being retained by the USAAF as Model 37s. For some reason, they never got USAAF designations or serial numbers.

The Ventura I was first delivered to the RAF in September of 1941, and went into service with No 21 Squadron at Bodney, Norfolk, in May of 1942. It also served with Nos 464 (RAAF) and 487 (RNZAF) Squadrons. It flew its first combat mission on November 3, 1942, an attack by three aircraft of No. 21 Squadron against a factory at Hengelo which had to be diverted into a raid against railway lines instead.

47 Venturas from Nos 21, 464, and 487 Squadrons took part along with Mosquitos and Bostons in a daylight low-level attack on December 6, 1942 against the Philips radio and vacuum tube factory at Eindhoven in the Netherlands. The raid did not go well--nine of the Venturas were shot down and 37 were damaged.

After this disaster, the Venturas switched to medium-altitude missions and attacked numerous targets in occupied Europe. On April 4, a formation of 24 Venturs were sent to bomb the Caen/Carpiquet airfield whereas another 24 Venturas were sent to attack the shipyards at Rotterdam. Two Venturas attacking Rotterdam were shot down by German fighters and three more were shot down by fighters on the Brest raid. On April 21, when Venturas of No 21 Squadron hit the marshaling yards at Abbeville, three more shot down by fighters. On May 3, 1943, eleven Venturas from No 487 Squadron attacked a power station in Amsterdam, but only one Ventura survived determined attacks from German fighters. The formation leader, Sqdn Ldr Leonard H. Trent, managed to shoot down a Bf 109 with his forward-firing guns before being shot down himself. Sqdn Ldr Trent was captured and spent the rest of the war in a POW camp. He managed to survive the war, and was later awarded the Victoria Cross for his bravery.

On May 24, No. 487 Squadron resumed operations. An attack on a power station and coking plant at Zeebrugge came off without losses. On May 29, No. 21 Squadron attacked Zeebrugge again. Two Venturas got involved in a midair collision. One made it back safely, but the other was lost.

On June 22, 1942, Wing Commander R. H. S. King, commander of No. 21 Squadron and his crew were killed when their Ventura was hit by flak in an attack on an enemy gun position near the Abbeville-Drucat airfield.

The Ventura was never very popular with its RAF crews. It was 50 mph faster than the Hudson which preceded it and had a bombload of 2500 pounds instead of the former's 1000 pounds, but it was over 7500 pounds heavier. Losses were high, and the aircraft was not really suitable as a bomber. The RAF Ventura I and II bombers were replaced by deHavilland Mosquitos by the summer of 1943. The last Ventura sortie took place with No. 21 Squadron on September 9, 1943.

After being phased out of the bombardment role, a number of Ventura Is were modified as Ventura G.R.Is for the Coastal Command beginning in the fall of 1943. These Ventura G.R.ls served with Nos. 519 and 521 Squadrons of RAF Coastal Command and with Nos 13 and 500 Squadrons in the Mediterranean.

21 Ventura Mk. Is and 108 Mk. II/IIAs were diverted to the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) from British contracts. The first Ventura I was received in June of 1942. The Ventura I and II aircraft retained in Canada were used exclusively in training roles and never saw combat. They retained their RAF serial numbers, and were assigned to No 340 Operational Training Unit at Pennfield Ridge, New Brunswick and No 1 Central Flying School at Trenton, Ontario.

The South African Air Force received 135 Ventura Mk I and II aircraft (SAAF serials 6001 to 6135). They equipped three Squadrons (Nos 17, 22, and 27) which initially operated at home to protect shipping routes around the Cape. They also served in the Mediterranean. Venturas of No. 17 Squadron carried out anti-shipping strikes off the coast of Italy, and No 452 flew a few night intruder missions. No 27 Squadron took over 500 Squadron's surviving Venturas and later operated from Malta. Venturas were operated by No. 27 Squadron until January of 1945, while other wartime Venturas, particularly in No. 299 Squadron of the RAF, were used as transports.

Although 264 British-ordered Ventura IIs were taken over by the USAAF and operated under the unorthodox designation of Model 37, the USAAF actually made only limited use of this aircraft in combat. Early in the war, several Model 37s were used for antisubmarine patrols, but most USAAF Venturas were used mainly for training at such stateside units as the Bomber Training Group at Randolph Field, the AAF Gunnery School at Laredo, Texas, and the AAF Navigation School at San Marcos, Texas.

The last 27 Ventura IIs on the British order were delivered to the US Navy under the designation PV-3. Their RAF serials were AJ511/AJ537), and they were assigned the Navy BuNos 33925/33951. They were assigned in October 1942 to VP-82 which operated from Newfoundland on anti-submarine patrols over the Atlantic."

From J. Baugher..

It seems D is correct about this. It was probably training and the way the aircraft were being deployed. It goes back to the old saying, "Never fly an "A" or "MK I" model of any aircraft....

[plan_D]

Thank you. And good post.

No. 21, 464, and 487 Squadrons were all in the 2nd Tactical Air Force. I got the information on the Ventura from it's 1943 missions with the 2nd TAF, and 2 Group from June to the Ventura being withdrawn. A mildly interesting note, before the Ventura's were replaced by Mosquitoes, the bomber arm of the 2nd TAF was completely equipped with American-made planes (Mitchells, Bostons and Venturas.)

[k9kiwi]

487 formed at RAF Feltwell 15 August 1942. Equipped with Venturas.

Transferred to 2nd TAF 1 June 1943

Re-equipped with Mosquito Bombers August 1943

Re-equipped Mosquito FB February 1944.

Squadron motto "Ki te mutunga" basically "To the End" in Maori.

So they operated Venturas for under 2 months in 2nd TAF, that is long enough to come up with your supposition. Good Grief.

PS. I thought they were useless because of not enough bombs or not good as fighters, or...... Oh never mind.


Sqn Ldr Trent. Trent Way at the old RNZAF Base Hobsonvile is named after him.

[jakal]

Hey, anything with a tail or belly gun position was a *****!