Details on January 14 1945

[Tikigod]

I'd like to get more information on this air battle. My Great Uncle was a Bombardier on one of the first B-17's that was shot down. He was apart of the 390th BG, 571st Squadron that was lost on the way to the Derben Oil Refineries. I have a copy of the MACR as well as the German report of the crash site where his body was recovered. The navigator was the only survivor on his plane. I have letters written to my grandmother by the navigator describing what happened from his viewpoint shortly after he returned home from the war. I also have his current contact information if anyone is interested in his perspective.

Please continue to post anymore findings. It is very important to my family records and I appreciate the amount of detail that has been shared so far.

Also, does anyone know of any guncam footage that may be archived of this air battle?

Thanks again for all your work.

[Erich]

all 390th bg losses were to fighters from JG 300. I'll do some more research and get back to you but no gun cam footage in particular to this date as far as I know. the 357th fg made a total shambles of JG 300 and JG 301, one of the few losses was to an Fw 190A-? from JG 301 in a very violent dog fight, the German in this case got the upper hand.. and guess who it was guys/gals ? you know whom.....Will Reschke

and yes I would be interested in the recollections of the navigator.......... Hey am I chatting with Bob K. ? if so hey how are you doing, we really got into conversation about this back in the fall of 2001. I've got the update on JG 300 and JG 301 since then ........ welcome aboard

[drgondog]

eric - rereading the Graham and mills 355FG account of the first encounter N coblenz, 4 of the Fw190s were flying top cover (which they shot down) - it sounds like 190Ds but not confirmation

[Erich]

questionable, JG 300 had no Doras........yet. III./JG 301 Fw 190A-8 and A-8/R2's wanted to pluck the bombers but were in intense combat with P-51's with a terrible height dis-advantage, will have to say the JG 301 members did not speak of German ground control too fondly this date, as they vectored them right in amongst the P-51 escorts..........JG 301 was up in the air piecemeal and was not strictly in an attack formation as they tired to gain altitude. at least 3-4 Doras of Stab and II. gruppe were shot down, but also Doras of JG 2 and JG 26 were in combat and became losses. I am going to assume that their were at least 15 Dora 9's of Stab and II. gruppe up ion the air

[drgondog]

If you don't have the encounter reports I'll send them to you??

[Erich]

please do Bill............

I want to compare with JG 301 which is scant brief as always. second thought you could be right on the monies with the D-9 kills

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

I think there is some confusion here.



JG 26 was west of Dummer Lak and I feel that the 355th fg engaged them though there is a note that the 78th fg may hae been in the area.

I just finished talking to Gordy Graham about the 14th. He is beyond a shaow of a doubt that the four Fw190Ds (specifically 'long nose Fw190D') plus the 5 Me109s and two Fw190As (or D's - not clear from encounter reports) they shot down were in a fight northeast of Munster, west of Dummer Lake and East of Meppen. For him it was his proudest mission.

Two Flights of 354FS plus one flight of three of 357FS, led by Elder, took on the Fw190d/190A/Me109 force and Everybody in the two flights of 354 shot down at least one, Elder getting the only 357 score.

I keep thinking based on Caldwell's JG26 book that all the II. & III./JG26 losses including Vogt's was in Koln area not further north. What source do you have that is putting Vogt's crash SW Dummer rather than Koln area?

The 355th claims do match the JG26 losses better than the 78th but they were 60+ miles further north than 78th.

[Erich]

Bill didn't I mention in your quote by me that it was JG 26 ?

JG 301 was way too far to the east. JG 2 would be the other alternative

sorry for not responding by private my email is down for a time .........

E

[Erich]

sent you a private as I kicked my email acct hard.............hope you receive it

JG 2 had shot down : 5 Fw 190D-9's from I. and III./JG 2 in the area of Altenstadet, Lich and Hagenau. not sure if the Allied units were RAF or US.

E ~

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

sent you a private as I kicked my email acct hard.............hope you receive it

JG 2 had shot down : 5 Fw 190D-9's from I. and III./JG 2 in the area of Altenstadet, Lich and Hagenau. not sure if the Allied units were RAF or US.

E ~

It just has to be JG26 which would mean that Caldwell's source may have been incorrect re: fight at, and SW, Koln...that is 80-100 miles south from 355th clash.

[Erich]

I agree with you Bill ........

E ~

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Just talked with one tonight for a 1/2 hour in fact..........

You know Erich, often I hear you say something like that. You sure know a lot of veterans! Especially Germans.

[Njaco]

I want to thank you guys for startin this thread again. I'm doin alittle re-constructing of this battle and only have books and the internet as references. No official records or access to such.

Thanks again.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Njaco

I want to thank you guys for startin this thread again. I'm doin alittle re-constructing of this battle and only have books and the internet as references. No official records or access to such.

Thanks again.

Not to mention that there was snow and cloud cover all over the area where these clashes took place - and nobody wants to trust a fighter pilots' navigation skills (or 60 year old memory)100%..

Pretty much have to depend on crash site reports in a lot of cases - and the Germans were nots nearly as meticulous in keeping those records in 1945.