Did the RN win the Battle of Britain?

[Glider]

I wouldn't underestimate the challenge in designing and building LST's, LCM's etc. They look simple and in the end were, but all went through a number of iterations before they were correct. You are relying on the Germans getting it right first time which is very unlikely.
The RN had a much greater capacity to lay mines than the Germans so do not overlook what damage they could have inflicted. As mentioned before, we could also sweep more mines than the germans so why don't you always go on about the German Minefields stoping the RN and not the other way around?.
The RN also had a number of smaller submarines better suited to this area so do not ignore what they could do.
The RN as admitted had more BB's by a massive amount and well eqiuiped for night fighting. The Germans wouldn't have lasted long and couldn't afford major damage to any of their capital ships. The RN would trade a sunk KGV or Nelson for a damaged Tirpitz as we had plenty more to use.

Suggestion - if you want to improve the Germans chances, why not include the Italian Fleet.

[Gnomey]

How are they going to get out of the Med with the British at Gibralter. Yes they could attempt to run past it but I suspect they would take severe losses if they were found. While it would give the Axis more ships the RN would probably be larger still and more comfortable operating in the waters of the channel than the Kreigsmarine or the Italian Navy.

[bomber]

Well hyperthetically speaking the Germans could trial out their landing craft and invasion support systems on Gibralta

Rather than doing the Channel dash from Southern French ports they could turn south towards Gibralta.

The Italian Fleet and French fleets could mobilise and add their support.

The end result of all this with the RN southern Atlantic fleet and Channel fleet being mobilised in response would be a second battle of trafalga.

Simon

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Glider

I wouldn't underestimate the challenge in designing and building LST's, LCM's etc. They look simple and in the end were, but all went through a number of iterations before they were correct. You are relying on the Germans getting it right first time which is very unlikely.

The designing process would be over quickly, the problem was building them on time as you're probably going to need new and special tools for the manufacturing process - Still a deadline of 6-7 months sounds reasonable to me.

The RN had a much greater capacity to lay mines than the Germans so do not overlook what damage they could have inflicted.

But where and when were the British going to lay them ??

As mentioned before, we could also sweep more mines than the germans so why don't you always go on about the German Minefields stoping the RN and not the other way around?.

Oh I wasn't suggesting that the mines alone were to stop the RN from entering the Channel, the U-boats would play the biggest role in avoiding this - However the mines would prove beneficial if the U-boats could lead the RN into them, something which I believe would've been a rather easy task.

The RN also had a number of smaller submarines better suited to this area so do not ignore what they could do.

Better suited ? How exactly ?

The RN as admitted had more BB's by a massive amount and well eqiuiped for night fighting.

The Germans were equipped for night fighting as-well.

The Germans wouldn't have lasted long and couldn't afford major damage to any of their capital ships. The RN would trade a sunk KGV or Nelson for a damaged Tirpitz as we had plenty more to use.

The RN would have to trade allot more even when trying to enter Channel itself, where the KM U-boats would waiting for them.

Suggestion - if you want to improve the Germans chances, why not include the Italian Fleet.

That is infact a good suggestion Glider, as the Italian navy could assist the KM in keeping the RN out of the channel and also help resupply the landed troops - the more the maryer as they say.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Soren

The designing process would be over quickly, the problem was building them on time as you're probably going to need new and special tools for the manufacturing process - Still a deadline of 6-7 months sounds reasonable to me.

Are you saying that the KM and German army will work together perfectly to come up with brand new amphibious designs and build them in mass production, emply them perfectly with no doctrine or tactics study and practice? I think you would be pressing your luck for everything to happen perfectly the first time. Not a way to launch a major amphib invasion.

Oh I wasn't suggesting that the mines alone were to stop the RN from entering the Channel, the U-boats would play the biggest role in avoiding this - However the mines would prove beneficial if the U-boats could lead the RN into them, something which I believe would've been a rather easy task.

Mine fields work both ways too. The KM would be channelized by their own fields

The RN would have to trade allot more even when trying to enter Channel itself, where the KM U-boats would waiting for them.

What makes you think the U-Boats themselves wouldnt be hunted by RN subs

That is infact a good suggestion Glider, as the Italian navy could assist the KM in keeping the RN out of the channel and also help resupply the landed troops - the more the maryer as they say.

Its "merrier". And dont you think the straights of Gibraltar would be a slight issue for the Italian navy?

There is also the issue of naval gunfire support. The KM and Italians (if you want to include them) would not be able to to enter the channel due to their own minefields. So what will the landing troops have for gunfire support? Luftawaffe? that sure isnt going to do the job. Luftwaffe is limited to daylight hours and good visibility. Plus there wouldnt be enough of them to handle the multitude of targets that would need to be engaged on d-day.

Now if you say they will be able to enter the channel because they know where their minefields are, it still means they will be exposed to British counter attacks with little room for maneuver.

[Hunter368]

This is amusing, round and round we go. Soren leading a one man charge. Soren I will give you this........you are stubborn.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i think he is placing far too much importance on minefeilds and U-boats, remember that for most of the war the channel was mined heavily along it's eastern entrance? so what? the KM still made it through at times and it was little more than a nusance to the RN, finding a minefeild is not hard and there would HAVE to be some safe passage into and out of the minefeilds/Channel for the KM to get in as you claim then can! not only would we use these safe routes but if we really wanted to be sneaky we had the ships to clear a safe route through the minefeilds with minesweepers! furthermore what makes you think we have to stop the Tirpitz in the Channel? not only can we attack with aircraft before she enters the channel but the North Sea Squadron can stop her before she even enters the channel!

as for the U-boats, no successful submarine operations have ever been completed in the channel and blocking them at the entrances to the channel is difficult for U-boats not only because they would be hunted but a submerged U-boat is extremely slow! not only this but when they surface at night which they have to do they will be pounced upon as we're all agreed the night belongs to the RN........

[redcoat]

Originally Posted by Soren

The designing process would be over quickly, the problem was building them on time as you're probably going to need new and special tools for the manufacturing process - Still a deadline of 6-7 months sounds reasonable to me.

The Germans did build a number of landing craft in WW2 they used them for transport duties in the Med. The first was launched in Dec 40

But where and when were the British going to lay them ??

Mines?
Where they laid them in real life, in area's suitable for amphibious landings

Oh I wasn't suggesting that the mines alone were to stop the RN from entering the Channel, the U-boats would play the biggest role in avoiding this - However the mines would prove beneficial if the U-boats could lead the RN into them, something which I believe would've been a rather easy task.

U-Boats in this period were highly sucessful in attacking slow under-escorted convoys, against fast destroyers which were zig-zaging they had little chance.
Exactly how does a U-boat lead a destroyer into a minefield ?

better suited ? How exactly ?

The U-Class submarines of the RN were small submarines designed to operate in the shallow waters of the North sea and Med. They were highly successful.

The Germans were equipped for night fighting as-well.

But there were far less of them, and they would be spread out in a vain effort to try and cover all the possible routes of the RN

The RN would have to trade allot more even when trying to enter Channel itself, where the KM U-boats would waiting for them.

In the Channel is too late, that's where the invasion fleet is. They have to stop them before they get into the Channel

That is in fact a good suggestion Glider, as the Italian navy could assist the KM in keeping the RN out of the channel and also help resupply the landed troops - the more the maryer as they say.

Why would the Italians wish to leave their coastline and convoy routes undefended from the attentions of the Royal Navy's Med fleet ?

[Soren]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Are you saying that the KM and German army will work together perfectly to come up with brand new amphibious designs and build them in mass production, emply them perfectly with no doctrine or tactics study and practice? I think you would be pressing your luck for everything to happen perfectly the first time. Not a way to launch a major amphib invasion.

How long did it take the Germans to prepare for Op. Barbarossa ?

Tactics and doctrine was not a concern, cause every German soldier by then possessed this. Practice on seaborn invasions had already been done before, and was tought in the Hitler-Jugend as-well.

Mine fields work both ways too. The KM would be channelized by their own fields

Channelized ? All they had to do was avoid going into the channel, the RN on the other hand would have to go through the mine-field in order to reach the invasion force.

What makes you think the U-Boats themselves wouldnt be hunted by RN subs

RN subs would've found that a VERY hard task to carry out ! How were they to successfully engage the better equipped German subs ?

Its "merrier".

Yeah thats right.

And dont you think the straights of Gibraltar would be a slight issue for the Italian navy?

Ofcourse it would, but it would occupy a good part of the RN at the same time.

There is also the issue of naval gunfire support. The KM and Italians (if you want to include them) would not be able to to enter the channel due to their own minefields.

Only the KM warships would have to be inside the channel, the Italian navy (if it ever made it there) would help guard the intrances to the channel or act as a chicane for the RN while it tries to enter it.

So what will the landing troops have for gunfire support? Luftawaffe? that sure isnt going to do the job. Luftwaffe is limited to daylight hours and good visibility. Plus there wouldnt be enough of them to handle the multitude of targets that would need to be engaged on d-day.

The KM warships would assist as-well as the LW.

Now if you say they will be able to enter the channel because they know where their minefields are, it still means they will be exposed to British counter attacks with little room for maneuver.

You're forgetting that RN can't see their most dangerous enemy - the U-boats. The U-boats would simply be spread out to guard the intrances, waiting for the RN to pass them - this was a tactic which proved effective against the fast Allied Destroyers in the Atlantic.

Just a single U-boat could cause havoc against even a large fleet of warships - remember what happened to the HMS Barham ?

[redcoat]

Originally Posted by Soren

Tactics and doctrine was not a concern, cause every German soldier by then possessed this. Practice on seaborn invasions had already been done before, and was tought in the Hitler-Jugend as-well.

In the history of the German army how many amphibious landings have they undertaken ?

RN subs would've found that a VERY hard task to carry out ! How were they to successfully engage the better equipped German subs ?

In what way were the German subs better equipped ?

You're forgetting that RN can't see their most dangerous enemy - the U-boats. The U-boats would simply be spread out to guard the intrances, waiting for the RN to pass them

So the RN would only have to pass one ot two U-boats in order to get to the invasion fleet

- this was a tactic which proved effective against the fast Allied Destroyers in the Atlantic.

In the Atlantic it was the U-boats which were the hunted when destroyers were present.

Just a single U-boat could cause havoc against even a large fleet of warships - remember what happened to the HMS Barham ?

Nonsense, the U-boat sank a single ship, that isn't going to stop a battlefleet intent on attacking the invasion fleet.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Soren

How long did it take the Germans to prepare for Op. Barbarossa ?

Huge difference between a land invasion against a foe that was ill prepared or trained and an amphib invasion against a well trained and equiped army.

Tactics and doctrine was not a concern, cause every German soldier by then possessed this. Practice on seaborn invasions had already been done before, and was tought in the Hitler-Jugend as-well.

And how many "quality" amphib invasions did the Germans practice at against a defended beach? The Germans were a continetal army with no maritime skills. Note - paddling in a rubber dingy on a small stream or lake does not qualify as practice for a cross channel jaunt in the channel that could be expected to have high sea states.

Channelized ? All they had to do was avoid going into the channel, the RN on the other hand would have to go through the mine-field in order to reach the invasion force.

Only the KM warships would have to be inside the channel, the Italian navy (if it ever made it there) would help guard the intrances to the channel or act as a chicane for the RN while it tries to enter it.

What is it, German warships in the channel or not.

RN subs would've found that a VERY hard task to carry out ! How were they to successfully engage the better equipped German subs ?

The RN subs would find plenty of German ships to shoot at, including subs. Besides, a torpedo doesnt care about the quality of a ship its shot at.

Of course it would, but it would occupy a good part of the RN at the same time.

Youre putting a lot of faith in the Italian navy to successfully protect itself against air attack. This would end up just the same as the repulse and the POW.

The KM warships would assist as-well as the LW.

The KM only had a mere handfull of BB's and CA's to use. You lose one or two for any reason, and youre fire support is greatly reduced. And I still cant figure out whether they are in the channel and bottled up by their own minefield, or out of the channel where they are of no use.

You're forgetting that RN can't see their most dangerous enemy - the U-boats. The U-boats would simply be spread out to guard the intrances, waiting for the RN to pass them - this was a tactic which proved effective against the fast Allied Destroyers in the Atlantic.

And youre forgetting that MTB's, destroyers and other small craft will be hunting your subs and once they pass your picket line, they will have a field day smashing the unarmed and slow moving invasion fleet. And if the weather is bad, your U-Boats wont be seeing many of them.

Just a single U-boat could cause havoc against even a large fleet of warships - remember what happened to the HMS Barham ?

And just a few aircraft can smash a large fleet just like the POW/Repluse and the Bismark.

Sorry Soren, your arguments assume everything will go exactly right for the Germans and everything will go spectaculary wrong with the Brits.

And if youre planning your invasion in 1942, forget it as the USN and USAAF would give the allies the qualitative and quantitavive superiority.

[Hop]

Submarines are very bad at attacking fast moving ships. As evidence of that, look at the Queen's during the war. They carried up to 15,000 soldiers at a time, and usually did so without escort, because their speed made them all but invulnerable to U boats.

[pbfoot]

[quote= they will be pounced upon as we're all agreed the night belongs to the RN........[/QUOTE]Did the RN have better flares ? because not many RN ships had radar
The Italian air force was probably as good as any in the spectrum of maritime warfare and working the channel would be a target rich enviroment with little transit time with very little chance of interception unless the RAF mounted a standing CAP as the radar available at the time was poor in its lo level capabilities but this would have strained the resources of the RAF and provided the Luftwaffe a target rich enviroment of their own . My tactic would have been similar in nature to Zeebrugge or St Nazaire but I would've beached a several large transports on the English shores in the initial assault to enable heavy equipment and supplies to be brought in .
Now the RN would have shifted a bulk of their resources to the channel leaving the ports from which the Brits recieved the vital resource of oil open to a blockade of U boats .

[Tony Williams]

The night belongs to the RN because aircraft cannot effectively attack ships at sea in the darkness. The Lufwaffe would therefore be nullified (and the U-boats wouldn't be able to see much either), and there would be nothing to stop the RN from wreaking havoc amongst the invasion force.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[the lancaster kicks ass]

furthermore as i keep saying, U-boats have to surface at night to recharge batteries- making them very nice targets for numerous RN ships in the area and with regards to U-boats stopping an entire navy- the RN would have small ships dropping more than enough depth charges if a U-boat was around to make the U-boat submerge drastically... a submarine below periscope depth is of no use to the Germans as a submarine below periscope depth can't see anything on the surface!