Did the RN win the Battle of Britain?

[daishi12]

It must also be remembered that the RN did not just have Battleships, Cruisers, Destroyers and Corvettes. There were also large numbers of trawlers that could and would have been converted to armed trawlers. Armed trawlers would have had the duty of laying and clearing mines which would have meant that the Kriegsmarine would have suffered losses before they could get to the beach heads.

If the Germans had attempted to invade, remember there would have been a change of priority with the Luftwaffe, they would have needed to change from bombing the mainland to trying to defend the invasion barges and surface ships from aerial attack, this means that bombers attacking RN surface ships would by default be lightly or unescorted.

The English Channel would have been red with blood for months.

I agree that the RAF won the BoB, but the RN prevented the invasion.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The RN played a big part but the RAF kept it all a very distant thought to begin with.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

If Fighter Command had clearly been losing, they just would have withdrawn to bases out of reach of the German fighters, and waited for the invasion to be committed before returning in force. The Luftwaffe would have had a serious headache, since they did not have a big advantage in fighter numbers. If the RAF fighters had concentrated on providing cover for the RN ships, then the Luftwaffe fighters would have had to concentrate on providing cover for their bombers attacking the ships - leaving the sky clear for Bomber Command to attack the invasion fleet. Alternatively, the Luftwaffe fighters could have protected the invasion force, resulting in their unescorted bombers being chewed up by Fighter Command as they tried to attack the RN. The Luftwaffe couldn't be everywhere at once, and if they tried to be they would be spread too thin to be very effective.


That's true but if both sides had almost the same amount of fighters couldn't they do half and half? If the Luftwaffe had divided itself with one half to defend the bombers, and the other half to defend the invasion fleet, the RAF would also have to divide itself to attack them both at once. And if the RAF decided to concentrate itself to attack just one half, say just the Luftwaffe bombers, with odds of maybe 2 to 1, then the German fighters guarding the invasion fleet could come right back to support fighters guarding the bombers. If the RAF switched all it's fighters then to the Invasion fleet the Luftwaffe could have backtracked and ect, ect, ect.

It would have been a bloody wild goose chase of the two fighter sides and it's likely the RAF would find one part of the German Invasion force unprotected but they would. But it's also likely the Luftwaffe would find one part of the RN unprotected as well!

But the English have the advantage of defending a beach head and battle ships, while the German had the Landing Craft and Bombers. It's more likely the German Bomber would be shot down by flak attacking the RN fleet than the RAF fighter would have been in shooting down the transport boats. And the German fleet would have sunk faster than the RN fleet simply because it was vulnerable to both the RAF Fighters and Navy. Amid this almost even sided hail storm the poor seasick German infantry would have had slim chance of hoping to break through the RN to the beach. Perhaps with an Air Path provided by the Luftwaffe they could do it. Still, on both sides the RN would be pounding the surviving german invasion fleet going single file through their ranks. And having to navigate through the sinking RN ships in their path their chances wouldn't be good.

And the English soldiers on the beach would likely be drinking tea since the Luftwaffe would be too busy to bomb them. The few surviving germans who made it onto the beach head would surrender and join them under guard.

I agree, the germans would have lost.

[davparlr]

I think this topic is deeper than what has been discussed. First of all, with the demise of the RAF in eastern Britain, the entire focus of both forces would have been on the invasion. Germany would not have to defeat the RN, only prevent its incursion into the English Channel. Since the battle of the Atlantic would be irrelevant with the demise of Britain, the entire U-boat fleet would have been made available to intercept RN forces as they approached the area. Also, I don’t know much about the depth of the English Channel other than an average of 120 meters, but I suspect that heavy mining could have severely hindered the movement of RN ships into the channel. And that is not even talking about the German airpower.

At the beginning of WWII, Japan was, without a doubt, the most knowledgeable nation in regards to air-sea warfare and fully understood the impact of air power on naval warfare, specifically unprotected warships. With this understanding, it must be noted here that Yamamoto was not willing to engage the forces surrounding Midway after his loss of air power. This, in spite of fact that he knew that only two carriers and no more than 200 combat aircraft was available to the Americans and that he had destroyed all reinforcements at Pearl Harbor. His remaining fleet, by the way, consisted of 11 battleships (including the Yamato), 12 cruisers, 1 light carrier and 45 destroyers. Now it is true that German pilots did not have the anti-shipping skills of the Japanese or probably the Americans, but they would learn fast. And, while the Dauntless was better than the Stuka, it would certainly be effective in that environment. I don’t know about German torpedo planes but they certainly had the light bombers that could adapt. Of course, the RAF planes from west Britain would have been thrown into the mix with desperation.

All in all, it would have been a ferocious fight that was completely avoided by the BOB. And yes, it was the RN that would have prevented any invasion for certain with RAF air cover, without RAF air cover, it is not so obvious.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i think you're giving jerry a bit too much credit, the RAF wouldn't allow itself to be totally wiped out anywhere, if things got so bad they were about to be destroyed they would pull back a bit and bought in fighters from all over the country, the BoB wasn't just fought over Kent and there were plenty of other squadrons around, all of which could be used to defend the Navy, so do not be fooled into thinking the navy would've got no air cover, they would have at the very least a bare bones defensive cover..............

next quite how do you propose the Germans keep the Navy out of the channel, two of Britain's biggest naval dockyards Plymouth and Portsmouth are already in the channel! There were known routes through the mine feilds and as demonstrated by Dunquirke (i think that's the French spelling ) they posed little problem once known, next to the issue of how jerry lays the mines? in the original article Dr. Gordon says they had only 4 minelaying vessels, and that the navy had 52 minesweepers! and there's only so many arial mines you can drop, but you cirtainly wont drop enough to completely block off the east end of the channel, and any ships coming from the north/east coast would be escorted by, amoung other vessels, minesweepers!

and as for the air power would i be correct in saying that at this point in the war the German's didn't have the ability to air drop torpedos? even if they could there's not much room in the channels to use them anyway, and as for arial bombing crews had little or no training against ships and during dunquirke stukas only really managed to sink stationary ships, furthermore the key to defeating the invasion would not be so much in the big capital ships but more with the smaller, faster vessels that're harder to hit from the air anyway..............

[mosquitoman]

I think He111s and 115s were equipped for torpedo ops by that time, definitely the 115

[pbfoot]

I'm pretty sure the Kriegsmarine would 've brought all the U boats into the channel and this would have caused havoc especially since ASW was in its infancy . The RAF would have been forced to cover naval ASW operations and also forced to position fighters further south to enable coverage of the RN

[Glider]

Three points.
1) U Boats have never worked well in the Channel during WW! or WW2. Its got strong currents, limited width and would of course be covered by the British.
2) The Germans couldn't have it both ways. If you want to lay lots of mines to stop the RN by default you are going to significantly limit the ability of your U Boats to attack the RN.
3) Seeing that the night belongs to the RN we would be able to lay far more mines than the Germans, plus as has already been stated, we have more minesweepers.

[Tony Williams]

The RN also had lots of anti-submarine escorts and aircraft which they could switch to the North Sea if the U-boats all left the Atlantic.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ***

i think you're giving jerry a bit too much credit, the RAF wouldn't allow itself to be totally wiped out anywhere, if things got so bad they were about to be destroyed they would pull back a bit and bought in fighters from all over the country, the BoB wasn't just fought over Kent and there were plenty of other squadrons around, all of which could be used to defend the Navy, so do not be fooled into thinking the navy would've got no air cover, they would have at the very least a bare bones defensive cover..............

I think Britain was throwing all it had at the Germans during the BOB, and that, at times, pilot assets were dangerously low. It is reasonable to believe that, if Germany had succeeded in eliminating the RAF as an effective force in the BOB, all that would have been left of the RAF is a skeleton force. And remember, with the battle being over the Channel, the limited range of Luftwaffe planes would not be an issue.

next quite how do you propose the Germans keep the Navy out of the channel, two of Britain's biggest naval dockyards Plymouth and Portsmouth are already in the channel!

These ports would be bomb mercilessly. Any ships in Portsmouth would probably not be a factor. Aerial bombing, mines and blockading submarines should have severely hampered any sorties from these ports.

There were known routes through the mine feilds and as demonstrated by Dunquirke (i think that's the French spelling ) they posed little problem once known, next to the issue of how jerry lays the mines? in the original article Dr. Gordon says they had only 4 minelaying vessels, and that the navy had 52 minesweepers! and there's only so many arial mines you can drop, but you cirtainly wont drop enough to completely block off the east end of the channel, and any ships coming from the north/east coast would be escorted by, amoung other vessels, minesweepers!

And they would be enduring aerial attacks all the way.

See comments at the end

and as for the air power would i be correct in saying that at this point in the war the German's didn't have the ability to air drop torpedos? even if they could there's not much room in the channels to use them anyway,

See note in a previous entry about German torpedo bombing. The Japanese had little problems with torpedoes in confines of Pearl Harbor.

and as for arial bombing crews had little or no training against ships and during dunquirke stukas only really managed to sink stationary ships,

They would learn fast in a congested target rich environment. The Dunkirk evacuation only lasted a couple of weeks so little learning took place. Still, 243 vessels were sunk even with RAF cover! Imagine the toll if there was only token to none RAF presence.

furthermore the key to defeating the invasion would not be so much in the big capital ships but more with the smaller, faster vessels that're harder to hit from the air anyway..............

Smaller, faster vessels are more susceptible to the lighter caliber weapons of fighters an fighter bombers.

[Glider=QUOTE]

Three points.
1) U Boats have never worked well in the Channel during WW! or WW2. Its got strong currents, limited width and would of course be covered by the British. [/quote]

Subs would not need to be in the Channel just the entrances.

2) The Germans couldn't have it both ways. If you want to lay lots of mines to stop the RN by default you are going to significantly limit the ability of your U Boats to attack the RN.

Mines would be in the Channel, U Boats at the entrances like defensive fighter planes staying out of the Flak

3) Seeing that the night belongs to the RN we would be able to lay far more mines than the Germans, plus as has already been stated, we have more minesweepers.

Germans would contest that with flares and searchlights. Nobody said it wouldn’t be a hard fight.

[Tony Williams=Quote]The RN also had lots of anti-submarine escorts and aircraft which they could switch to the North Sea if the U-boats all left the Atlantic. [/quote]

I think anti-submarine warfare was not up to stopping subs at that time of WWII.

However, in order to be successful, the Germans would have had to have a well thought out plan and proper preparation. This would include mines and minelayers, torpedoes and torpedo planes, coastal artillery, and it would also have required landing training. Just look at the D Day preparations and training (true, France was better defended than Britain but still). I do not think Germany would have executed the proper preparation due to lack of sea invasion experience. But even without proper preparation, without air power, the Brits would have sustained massive losses to it fleet. That is why Yamamoto did not press home his attack!

[pbfoot]

The RN lauched corvettes without guns in 1939/40 as they were not available or short supply and actually sailed some with a fake wooden gun and the tactics for ASW were woefully inadequate

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by davparlr

I think Britain was throwing all it had at the Germans during the BOB, and that, at times, pilot assets were dangerously low. It is reasonable to believe that, if Germany had succeeded in eliminating the RAF as an effective force in the BOB, all that would have been left of the RAF is a skeleton force.

I think you are mistaken. As has already been pointed out, only about half of Fighter Command was engaged in the BoB at any one time. And if the RAF's losses had become too severe, they would have withdrawn to bases outside the range of German fighters and marshalled their resources ready to repel the invasion.

These ports would be bomb mercilessly. Any ships in Portsmouth would probably not be a factor. Aerial bombing, mines and blockading submarines should have severely hampered any sorties from these ports.

While the RAF and RN were sitting around doing nothing?

And they would be enduring aerial attacks all the way.

Unlike the (much slower, much more vulnerable) invasion fleet?

See note in a previous entry about German torpedo bombing. The Japanese had little problems with torpedoes in confines of Pearl Harbor.

They learned from the British attack on Taranto, and practice intensively for Pearl Harbor, in every detail, for many weeks.

They would learn fast in a congested target rich environment. The Dunkirk evacuation only lasted a couple of weeks so little learning took place. Still, 243 vessels were sunk even with RAF cover! Imagine the toll if there was only token to none RAF presence.

Just how long did you expect it would take the invasion fleet to get across the Channel? More than two weeks????

As has already been pointed out, only a handful of destroyers were sunk, and only when stationary. The vast majority of vessels sunk were small boats - not unlike the invasion fleet would have been.

Smaller, faster vessels are more susceptible to the lighter caliber weapons of fighters an fighter bombers.

Destroyers would find such attacks no more than irritations. Unlike the barges of the invasion fleet, packed with soldiers, which would be highly vulnerable to machine gun attacks.

Mines would be in the Channel, U Boats at the entrances like defensive fighter planes staying out of the Flak

Mines were placed wherever they needed to be. And the further you get away from the Channel, the wider the North Sea becomes, the harder it woud be for U-boats to find their targets, and the easier it would be for anti-sub planes and escorts to operate without fear of air attack. U-boat attacks against warships travelling at 25+ knots (while they could only manage 7 knots submerged) were a totally different ball game to attacking 7-knot merchant convoys.

Germans would contest that with flares and searchlights. Nobody said it wouldn’t be a hard fight.

I don't think you have any concept of the difficulties of locating anything in a body of water the size of the Channel, in which flares and searchlights are the merest glimmers.

I think anti-submarine warfare was not up to stopping subs at that time of WWII.

All the anti-sub forces had to do was keep the U-boats submerged below periscope depth, in which state they could see nothing and only move at a crawl.

However, in order to be successful, the Germans would have had to have a well thought out plan and proper preparation. This would include mines and minelayers, torpedoes and torpedo planes, coastal artillery, and it would also have required landing training. Just look at the D Day preparations and training (true, France was better defended than Britain but still). I do not think Germany would have executed the proper preparation due to lack of sea invasion experience. But even without proper preparation, without air power, the Brits would have sustained massive losses to it fleet. That is why Yamamoto did not press home his attack!

The British would have had air power, as has been repeatedly pointed out.

For the Germans to launch a successful invasion, they would have had to do everything right, and been very lucky, the British would have had to do everything wrong, and been very unlucky. War isn't like that.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[Tony Williams]

P.S. sorry about the double post - the first one suddenly posted itself before I had finished, and my edit came up as a new post (very odd).

TW

[Glider]

Tony's post makes a lot of sense and should be read and considered before replying. In particular the comments about the size of the channel.
I live on the coast and have sailed in the North Sea so have some idea as to what we are looking at.
Flares and searchlights would be next to useless. Coastal Artillery wouldn't hit a thing, lacking range, ROF and those that existed tended to be ex WW1 weapons.
As for the bombers remember that the Germans at the time were unable to stop very slow convoys of Colliers sailing into the Thames so what make you think they would be able to hit fast moving destroyers?

[bomber]

My thoughts are this...

1) The RAF constists of fighter and bomber command, at a push fighter command could call on trained pilots.

2) Just how many German infantry would we be talking about on the beachhead ?... opposed by how many British infantry..

German armour in the blitzkrieg rolled over Mainland Europe.. this just wouldn't work in the home counties...

Airsupremacy was just the initial requirement of the Germans for an invasion it was by no means everything...

A successfull siege would have given greater results.

Regards

Simon