DITCHING CHARACTERISTICS - Aircraft of World War II

Downwind.Maddl-Land · 11-26-2007, 05:55 PM

Anyone got any opinions - or better yet - information on which WWII aircraft had good, or bad, ditching characteristics?

As a 'starter for 10', 2 of the worst had to be the B-24 and the Beaufighter. The latter even inspired poetry by one Gavin Ewart; viz:

When a Beau goes in
Into the drink
It makes you think,
Because, you see, they always sink;
But nobody says "Poor lad!"
Or goes about looking sad;
Because, you see, it's war,
It's the unalterable law.

Although it's perfectly certain
The pilot's gone for a Burton
And the observer too,
It's nothing to do with you;
And if they both should go
To a land where falls no rain nor hail nor driven snow--
Here, there, or anywhere,
Do you suppose THEY care?

You shouldn't cry
Or say a prayer or sigh.
In the cold sea, in the dark
It isn't a lark
But it isn't Original Sin--
It's just a Beau going in.

Gavin Ewart

(Apologies if this has been done before but I couldn't find anything specific)

renrich · 11-26-2007, 06:11 PM

P51 would not be fun to ditch because of under fuselage air scoop. Spitfire same problem maybe to a lesser extent. All USN fighters pretty good.

Crumpp · 11-26-2007, 07:10 PM

Great topic!

I think it is very easy to underestimate just how difficult and dangerous ditching at sea is for a pilot.

A good friend of the family was killed along with his daughter’s best friend in the Bahamas ditching a 172 at night in the sea after engine failure. His daughter was the only survivor. Sad thing is he was over the beach at around 3am when it happened. He requested to set it down on the beach but ATC vectored him over the ocean to attempt a runway landing. I always think about that when ATC issues me instructions during stressful times. Good way to keep in mind that you as the pilot are responsible for the safety of the flight, not ATC.

Interesting article on the subject of ditching. There is some controversy on the best techniques to use. The technique probably has more to do with the outcome than the aircraft I would think.

EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Ditchings - a Case History and Review of the Record

All the best,

Crumpp

drgondog · 11-26-2007, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by renrich

P51 would not be fun to ditch because of under fuselage air scoop. Spitfire same problem maybe to a lesser extent. All USN fighters pretty good.

The SOP for the 51 was bail out better than ditch.

B-24 broke its back frequently

B-17 allegedly great..

Downwind.Maddl-Land · 11-26-2007, 07:44 PM

Hey Crumpp, I’m really, really sorry to hear that story; especially as I was an ATCO. Please accept my genuine condolences. Ditching a fixed gear aircraft has just got to be a less than 50/50 affair and only then if everything is going for you. I have an ATC experience to relate on the subject, but that probably isn’t appropriate now.

Renrich, you have to be right there; the Mustang must have pitched forward something awful when it made contact and probably just went straight on down with the weight of that Merlin to help; not a good option!

I believe that the Spitfire wasn’t toooo bad as it had a low stall speed and the wide wing cushioned impact slightly and added buoyancy; it might have been better than a Hurricane (with only fabric to keep the wet stuff out) that also had the large water-ingesting central radiator speed arrestor. I’ve read numerous stories about B-17s and Lancasters seeming to ditch reasonabley well but nothing about Halifaxes.

The B-24 I know was a complete Dog; the fuselage always fractured in a the area of mid-chord, the bomb doors always collapsed and the mid-upper turret usually detached and visited the flight deck crew, with less than welcome results.

I’ve seen the famous bit of film of the Hellcat ditching alongside the carrier and that seems to go OK; anyone any information on how the fabled Corsair fared?

pbfoot · 11-26-2007, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Great topic!

I think it is very easy to underestimate just how difficult and dangerous ditching at sea is for a pilot.

A good friend of the family was killed along with his daughter’s best friend in the Bahamas ditching a 172 at night in the sea after engine failure. His daughter was the only survivor. Sad thing is he was over the beach at around 3am when it happened. He requested to set it down on the beach but ATC vectored him over the ocean to attempt a runway landing. I always think about that when ATC issues me instructions during stressful times. Good way to keep in mind that you as the pilot are responsible for the safety of the flight, not ATC.

Interesting article on the subject of ditching. There is some controversy on the best techniques to use. The technique probably has more to do with the outcome than the aircraft I would think.

EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Ditchings - a Case History and Review of the Record

All the best,

Crumpp

why would anyone accept vectors in an engine out scenario when you apparently can see the ground? I've worked similar situations as an ATC and it's the pilots call ,how are you supposed to control a powerless aircraft
get the grease pencil out to mark it on the CRT and assist as much as possible without becoming a hindrance to the pilot while getting the emerg folks headed the right way

HoHun · 11-26-2007, 08:28 PM

Hi Downwind,

>Anyone got any opinions - or better yet - information on which WWII aircraft had good, or bad, ditching characteristics?

There is a series of pictures shot with a long tele lens of a Messerschmitt Me 110 ditching off the French coast during the Battle of Britain. It was published in the Luftwaffe propaganda magazine "Der Adler", showing two crew members getting out, with a caption like "One of the survivors swims back to the sinking aircraft, but too late to save his comrade". This statement appears somewhat suspect since as far as I know, the Me 110 in daylight operations only carried a crew of two anyway.

One particular aircraft that did extremely well on ditching was the Focke-Wulf Fw 200 recovered from the sea off Norway a couple of years ago. Though it ditched because the flaps extended asymmetrically, the pilot was able to put it down so softly that the crew managed to get into the dinghi without even getting wet. It probably helped that they had gone through the (dry) ditching drill only a few days before. Interestingly, the pilot (who is still alive) commented that the aircraft sunk quickly because the fuel tanks were almost empty as they were coming in from a long-range reconnaissance flight.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Jank · 11-26-2007, 09:08 PM

Does anyone know how the P-38 fared either in belly landings on ground or in water ditches?

AL Schlageter · 11-26-2007, 09:46 PM

There was some vids on utube showing proper ditching techniques for some RAF planes.

ccheese · 11-26-2007, 09:53 PM

I've seen films of a B-29 ditching... looked to me like a piece of cake.
I've seen AD's go into the drink, and floated so long the DD had to sink
it with gunfire !

Charles

Crumpp · 11-27-2007, 12:39 AM

Quote:

why would anyone accept vectors in an engine out scenario when you apparently can see the ground?

His engine was not out when ATC vectored him. It was running rough and failed when he was out over the water following ATC instructions.

I can see my post did not make that key point clear. His engine started running rough and losing power. He requested to land on the beach and ATC denied the request. Either way, the pilot is responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft. Like I said I think about it every time I get such things as LAHSO's before I take them.

My homebase is Class C so I am very comfortable with ATC, the majors, and the regionals. In fact ATC are my heroes when I am flying! I am also very cognizant of the fact it is my butt in the left seat.

Quote:

Hey Crumpp, I’m really, really sorry to hear that story

Thanks. It was a pretty sad time.

All the Best,

Crumpp

Downwind.Maddl-Land · 11-27-2007, 05:10 AM

I have to agree with Pbfoot (well we would, wouldn’t we? We’re both ATCOs!). I don’t know what the priorities are for the FAA but for UK military ATCOs the No 1 is always “Aircraft in Emergency” and (in general terms) your first action is get the distressed aircraft pointing towards the nearest airfield. (“N XYZ Mayday/Pan acknowledged, steer 123 for Little Hogsnorghton [or wherever], advise intentions when able.”). Pause while he Aviates, Navigates then Communicates.

If those intentions are “Executing forced landing on beach at position ABC” you don’t tell him he can’t! You are in nice warm ATC facility – he’s not! Specifically, with a rough running engine you’d steer the aircraft to the overhead – you only need DF to do this – and, if the aircraft was above cloud, conduct a Spiral Controlled Descent Through Cloud. Again, you only need DF to do this too; you’d be able to get a C172 or the like into a position where it could conduct a forced landing on the airfield, if not onto a runway, in an 800’ cloudbase.

What you wouldn’t do is turn the aircraft with a rough running engine away from the airfield. Seems bizarre to me, I have to say. However, some civilian ATC units can become so imbued with their routine, day-to-day, sausage machine operations that they forget that sometimes the sausage machine has to be switched off for a few minutes, but that’s a Human Factors issue.

However, we have a serious thread drift situation going on here……….

Downwind.Maddl-Land · 11-27-2007, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccheese

I've seen films of a B-29 ditching... looked to me like a piece of cake.

Charles, is that the piece when the '29 ditches along, and just off, the beach, behind a long line of accommodation tents? All the off-duty guys turn and watch the proceedings with intense curiosity! I think it's Saipan. If so, Yes, that is real well-controlled ditching, although how deep the water is I don't know; I don't think its too deep and everyone should have got out of that one.

Crumpp · 11-27-2007, 07:54 AM

Quote:

I don’t know what the priorities are for the FAA but for UK military ATCOs the No 1 is always “Aircraft in Emergency” and (in general terms) your first action is get the distressed aircraft pointing towards the nearest airfield.

There were some court battles and IIRC some members of your former colony ended up paying.

Quote:

However, we have a serious thread drift situation going on here……….

Yes

All the best,

Crumpp

Downwind.Maddl-Land · 11-27-2007, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp

There were some court battles and IIRC some members of your former colony ended up paying.

Oooooooooooooh! Stuff the thread drift! Do tell!

(or was it with respect to 'your' specific incident? If so, I don't want to pry and please accept my apologies in advance)

11-26-2007, 05:55 PM	#1
Downwind.Maddl-Land Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: York, England Posts: 267	DITCHING CHARACTERISTICS Anyone got any opinions - or better yet - information on which WWII aircraft had good, or bad, ditching characteristics? As a 'starter for 10', 2 of the worst had to be the B-24 and the Beaufighter. The latter even inspired poetry by one Gavin Ewart; viz: When a Beau goes in Into the drink It makes you think, Because, you see, they always sink; But nobody says "Poor lad!" Or goes about looking sad; Because, you see, it's war, It's the unalterable law. Although it's perfectly certain The pilot's gone for a Burton And the observer too, It's nothing to do with you; And if they both should go To a land where falls no rain nor hail nor driven snow-- Here, there, or anywhere, Do you suppose THEY care? You shouldn't cry Or say a prayer or sigh. In the cold sea, in the dark It isn't a lark But it isn't Original Sin-- It's just a Beau going in. Gavin Ewart (Apologies if this has been done before but I couldn't find anything specific)

11-26-2007, 07:44 PM	#5
Downwind.Maddl-Land Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: York, England Posts: 267	Hey Crumpp, I’m really, really sorry to hear that story; especially as I was an ATCO. Please accept my genuine condolences. Ditching a fixed gear aircraft has just got to be a less than 50/50 affair and only then if everything is going for you. I have an ATC experience to relate on the subject, but that probably isn’t appropriate now. Renrich, you have to be right there; the Mustang must have pitched forward something awful when it made contact and probably just went straight on down with the weight of that Merlin to help; not a good option! I believe that the Spitfire wasn’t toooo bad as it had a low stall speed and the wide wing cushioned impact slightly and added buoyancy; it might have been better than a Hurricane (with only fabric to keep the wet stuff out) that also had the large water-ingesting central radiator speed arrestor. I’ve read numerous stories about B-17s and Lancasters seeming to ditch reasonabley well but nothing about Halifaxes. The B-24 I know was a complete Dog; the fuselage always fractured in a the area of mid-chord, the bomb doors always collapsed and the mid-upper turret usually detached and visited the flight deck crew, with less than welcome results. I’ve seen the famous bit of film of the Hellcat ditching alongside the carrier and that seems to go OK; anyone any information on how the fabled Corsair fared? Last edited by Downwind.Maddl-Land; 11-26-2007 at 07:46 PM. Reason: presentation

11-26-2007, 09:08 PM	#8
Jank Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 679	Does anyone know how the P-38 fared either in belly landings on ground or in water ditches? __________________ August 12, 1944 - In an armor cover mission at the Falaise track, Charlie Rife, 368th FG, 395th FS, takes 37mm fllak rounds to both wings. His wingman, Richard Kik, takes a 20mm round to the engine that knocks out two cylinders. Both make it back.

11-26-2007, 09:53 PM	#10
ccheese Older Than Dirt Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia Posts: 7,309	I've seen films of a B-29 ditching... looked to me like a piece of cake. I've seen AD's go into the drink, and floated so long the DD had to sink it with gunfire ! Charles __________________ I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either....

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

11-26-2007, 06:11 PM	#2
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,271	P51 would not be fun to ditch because of under fuselage air scoop. Spitfire same problem maybe to a lesser extent. All USN fighters pretty good.

11-26-2007, 07:10 PM	#3
Crumpp Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 330	Great topic! I think it is very easy to underestimate just how difficult and dangerous ditching at sea is for a pilot. A good friend of the family was killed along with his daughter’s best friend in the Bahamas ditching a 172 at night in the sea after engine failure. His daughter was the only survivor. Sad thing is he was over the beach at around 3am when it happened. He requested to set it down on the beach but ATC vectored him over the ocean to attempt a runway landing. I always think about that when ATC issues me instructions during stressful times. Good way to keep in mind that you as the pilot are responsible for the safety of the flight, not ATC. Interesting article on the subject of ditching. There is some controversy on the best techniques to use. The technique probably has more to do with the outcome than the aircraft I would think. EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Ditchings - a Case History and Review of the Record All the best, Crumpp

11-26-2007, 08:28 PM	#7
HoHun Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,765	Hi Downwind, >Anyone got any opinions - or better yet - information on which WWII aircraft had good, or bad, ditching characteristics? There is a series of pictures shot with a long tele lens of a Messerschmitt Me 110 ditching off the French coast during the Battle of Britain. It was published in the Luftwaffe propaganda magazine "Der Adler", showing two crew members getting out, with a caption like "One of the survivors swims back to the sinking aircraft, but too late to save his comrade". This statement appears somewhat suspect since as far as I know, the Me 110 in daylight operations only carried a crew of two anyway. One particular aircraft that did extremely well on ditching was the Focke-Wulf Fw 200 recovered from the sea off Norway a couple of years ago. Though it ditched because the flaps extended asymmetrically, the pilot was able to put it down so softly that the crew managed to get into the dinghi without even getting wet. It probably helped that they had gone through the (dry) ditching drill only a few days before. Interestingly, the pilot (who is still alive) commented that the aircraft sunk quickly because the fuel tanks were almost empty as they were coming in from a long-range reconnaissance flight. Regards, Henning (HoHun)

11-26-2007, 09:46 PM	#9
AL Schlageter Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 220	There was some vids on utube showing proper ditching techniques for some RAF planes.

11-27-2007, 05:10 AM	#12
Downwind.Maddl-Land Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: York, England Posts: 267	I have to agree with Pbfoot (well we would, wouldn’t we? We’re both ATCOs!). I don’t know what the priorities are for the FAA but for UK military ATCOs the No 1 is always “Aircraft in Emergency” and (in general terms) your first action is get the distressed aircraft pointing towards the nearest airfield. (“N XYZ Mayday/Pan acknowledged, steer 123 for Little Hogsnorghton [or wherever], advise intentions when able.”). Pause while he Aviates, Navigates then Communicates. If those intentions are “Executing forced landing on beach at position ABC” you don’t tell him he can’t! You are in nice warm ATC facility – he’s not! Specifically, with a rough running engine you’d steer the aircraft to the overhead – you only need DF to do this – and, if the aircraft was above cloud, conduct a Spiral Controlled Descent Through Cloud. Again, you only need DF to do this too; you’d be able to get a C172 or the like into a position where it could conduct a forced landing on the airfield, if not onto a runway, in an 800’ cloudbase. What you wouldn’t do is turn the aircraft with a rough running engine away from the airfield. Seems bizarre to me, I have to say. However, some civilian ATC units can become so imbued with their routine, day-to-day, sausage machine operations that they forget that sometimes the sausage machine has to be switched off for a few minutes, but that’s a Human Factors issue. However, we have a serious thread drift situation going on here……….