The Do-335

[Kurfürst]

Outrageous claims, such as...?

As for your direct, open, repeated and uncalled accusations with nazism which severely violates the rules of civilized discussion and the very fundamental rules of this particular discussion board, I shall let it be dealt with by the moderation team here, hopefully with similarly severe means.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by parsifal

Murray is only considered one of the foremost experts in the world on the Luftwaffe

He is supported by Hayward in his work, "The Luftwaffe and Hitlers defeat in the East", in which he also shows the The Luftwaffe as having a problem with logistics. Hayward reports that the operational readiness rate for the Luftwaffe reached a peak in June 1942, on the southern front, of 70%, but this had plunged to less than 31% by the time of Stalingrad. By March it had staged a partial recovery to 45%, and some further improvement again by the time of Kursk (IIRC it had climbed to something over 50%), From there on, the readiness rate continued to drop, until by the end of the war, almost the entire Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front had become non-operational (not due to spares, mostly to the fuel situation by then).

To provide perspective on dogmatic arguements, and how they are 'supported'.

It is claimed that Hayward 'supports' Murray. Naturally it is the addition of parsifal that that this support is in proving (parsifal's claim) about 'The Luftwaffe as having a problem with logistics.'.

It is little surprise to find, that Hayward, who 'supports' Murray's (read: parsifal's) is merely quoting some statistics provided by Murray - compare the similarity.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/att...d=12162015 98

The picture painted by Murray is in contrast with the way it is painted by parsifal: during the winter of 41/42, the servicibility reached an all time low of 39% on avarage; less with bombers, and a bit higher with fighters at 44%. Considering the circumstances of the period this is not particularly surprising. Despite the allaged 'lack of spares', this somehow reached the typical wartime avarage of 69% (75% fighters, 66% bombers) by June. The remainder of the year, in direct contrast to parsifal`s extreme claim of 31%, had a minimum servicibility of 59% and up to 65%, ie. quite steady servicibility rates with minor variations, as opposed to the winter of 1941: the Luftwaffe`s supply chain was now established in Russia.

It would appear that those statistics were also manipulated by parsifal, and then some cinematic license was taken to the story, and the blanket claim was added that it just got worse later in the war (already disproved by checking against serviceability figures provided by Price, showing higher serviceability rates in mid-1944 than in the East, probably due to less severe air combat activity, despite the more difficult logistical situation compared to the West).

The name of Murray was borrowed to lend authority, despite Murray not making such claims himself: checking the Murray-quote posted earlier in this thread, dealing with 'Gorings fascination with numbers', claimed to have been applied to the entire war; in reality, it is found in one of the first chapters of Murray`s book, describing the pre-1939 birth and development of the Luftwaffe..

This is nothing else than wanton misrepresentation, lately peppered with ad hominem iattack, that are persifal's Ersätz-arguments.

[parsifal]

Still no credential I see, I don’t think that you have any, including any brains, morals, manners, or education

Outrageous claims by Kurfurst….lets have a look at just few from this thread alone.

I would say that German AFV production was far more standardized - a couple of basic chassis and two powerplants were found almost all of their tanksSources, supporting information, oh I forgot we are talking about things german, we don’t need to do that do we

Its difficult to see why are you are switching the subject to the 'Allies'. The subject was specifically the RAF lack of modern (fighter) equipment through the war.
Incorrect. My position was this…the Do335 was unnecessary, and an example of poor German management of their resources. German technical research was impressive, and produced some amazing pieces of equipment, but failed to be co-ordinated. The examples I quoted was the relative overproduction of fighters, the relative underproduction of pilots, the total lack of co-ordination with oil output and force projections for the luftwaffe, and finally, the lack of spare parts production, which exacerbated the relative lack of sustainability in german operations, and their relatively low serviceability rates, particulalry after 1942. The reaction of you, and your mate the Idiot Gerry was to try and attack the british, for some reason, as if that was relevant to the thread, or in some way vindicated german stuff ups

They should have mobilized the economy in early 1942, after the first failures on the Russian front; there have been plans for this, but eventually the top brass has changed their mind and needed Stalingrad and Tunisia to happen to shake them up. You cant really blame them for not mobilizing before 1942, after all, it seemed to everybody back then they are winning the war even with a limited mobilisation of the economy. There is no point in waging a war at the cost of ruining the economy, see the UK`s example on that.

This is breathtakingly innaccurate summary of why the germans did not mobilize earlier, and a patently outrageous claim to make. Anybody with any academic training would immediately realize that this sort of comment needs to be supported with expert opinion, but this is evidently not required if it is a german propaganda piece

Especially as the RAF was barely even up in the air to go against the Luftwaffe after 1940.


Any evidence thought necessary to make such an outrageous claim, no of course not, because there isnt any, is there. Just more Kurfurst Bullshit

However if you look at the entire Luftwaffe, rather than just Luftflotte Reich, which was undergoing its most severe period of combat with the USAAF at the time, servicabilty rates were around 70%. Its also rather important whether these servicibility statistics refer to the status in the morning, before the battles, or were taken in the evening, when a lot of planes were around with a couple of holes in them, unservicable, but overall only having light damage that would repaired by the morning.

As such of the statistics above are misleading.
You then launch into an apology based mostly on fantasy and irrelevant fictions, and DON’T tackle the issue at all. None of the credible sources that are available support the claim of serviceability rates of 70%, an absolutely outrageous claim, but one that just effortlessly rolls of your tongue. Anybody else would feel it necessary to very carefully document suchg a claim, but not you….we others are exepected to just accept such lies as gospel truth…yeah right

Phrases like 'Goring's and Hitlers fascination' certainly do not raise his credibility, as it only addresses the reader`s emotions but not his mind. Stuff like 'Instead the Germans assigned production almost exclusively to first line strength' is also funny and it is easy to disprove

It would perhaps help if you actually read a little, like Murray for example, because if you did, you would see he has some very credible sources. You then launched into an unsubtantiated claim about the numbers of aircraft produced, and truied to claim that whole units wa more efficient than having a proper spares reserve, obviously ignorant of the fact that OKL itself had repeatedly recommended that the spares reserves be built up, for precisely the reasons explained in Murray. You decide that Gorings approach was superior to that of his own air staff. Increadibly stupid, and totally lacking in any sort of understanding of the problem

Yet Murray claims there were not enough spares.. it would seem to me that there were always plentiful of whole replacement aircraft around, which would appear to be a much more straightforward means of increasing servicibility than to perform repairs of damaged aircraft on site.

If you read a little more widely, and were a little better informed, you would know that Murray is referring to comments that originated from the german air staff, not making any opinionated observations. But then, that doesn’t matter, does it. I suspect, that anyone, including german, that make disparaging remarks against the glorious third reich is going to attract your ire.

Hayward apparently picks certain periods of low serviceability rates, at certain times and certain locations to support his conception, instead of providing an overall picture how serviceability went through the war.

Cherry picking, however, is not convincing.
You obviously have not read Hayward either. I suggest you learn to read, then once you have mastered that, actually read the books first before making any comments about them. If you did, you would know that Hayward has quite detailed accounts of serviceabilty rates, is quite pro-german in his biases, and certaihnly does not cherry pick. There is some cherry picking going on here, but its neither of these gentlemen

That`s a remarkable funny fiction, in view of the reported sorties flew over the Eastern front by Luftwaffe`s non-operational phantom planes. IIRC 10 000 or so fighter sorties were flown in the East in February 1945 alone. Over Berlin in April, a very high number of sorties (a few thousend a day, from memory) were flown.

I guess *IF* Hayward makes such a blatantly stupid claim that towards the wars end the Luftwaffe was non-operational on the East, I guess his book can go straight onto the lower shelf of the 'Fiction' shelf in remote book stores.
Not a shred of evidence to support this outrageous claim, particularly since no other source would support this. You yet again feel no great need to support a statement that most would find quite ridiculous

Yet I still have to wonder how the Luftwaffe, despite your claims, maneged to keep up on avarage 60-70% servicibility with its fighter units late in the war, despite the railways, roads being regularly attack by medium bombers and fighter bombers, the airfields strafed by escorts and bombed by heavies.

What about a source??/ This is a claim most people would see as quite outrageous, and certainly deserving of some supporting information. But yet again, you blithely believe you are a member of the master race, and don’t need to worry about such petty things as factual support


Oh I see now. You describe a fiction, born a few minutes ago in your mind, and then say that this is how exactly it happened 60 years ago. No supportive evidence, nothing.

Because you want it to have been happening that way, because you argued earlier it did, then it must have happened that way.

Didn’t seem to register that I had produced three separate sources, which you chose to discredit, without having actually read them first, and then even had the temerity to poo bah an actual veterans observations. And all of this without any evidence of your own. It was me who had provided any supporting argument, it was you, yet you attempt to post the fiction that I had personally dreamt the case against you all by myself, when in fact the case was presented from three sources, to which you provided not the slightest rebuttal in evidence, just bullshit opinion

The burden of proof is on you, you make the claims here

Well, actually, if you had any education, and could actually read, you would know that I had presented a case, and some supporting evidence. You would also realize that in order to rebutt those arguments, you should start presenting some supporting evidence of your own. But this fails to register for you does it, because of your lack of education and knowledge. All you can see are the swastikas marching through your head, and the glory days of the third reich, as the cheers of the crowd sweep you away

The matter has been concluded IMHO. It appears neither the original poster nor the two unquestionable authorities he calls upon to support to dogma has anything to offer as evidence.

It is of course also possible that Hayward, with whom I am not familiar with, is only used selectively to support the dogma, and the way he is being quoted here by some is not representing Hayward`s actual opinions.

Yet again youo pass judgement on creditable secondary sources, without having actually read them. Evidence is evidence. If you have better, produce it. These guys are considered creditable and authoritative, yet you continue to dismiss them, without havuing read them, and worse, without bothering to produce reduttal authority yourself.

There is one thing we do agree on, though the end point is vastly different. I agree with you the matter is concluded IMO. Evidence has been presented from internationally recognized and well respected sources, to support my position. Not one piece of evidence in rebuttal has been presesented by yourself to oppose that, making you look incredibly stupid, dogmatic, and very ill informed

[lesofprimus]

Enough is enough guys.... Stop with the personal attacks and stick to the facts...

And no more Nazi calling!!!!

[Kurfürst]

I like when people claiming silly things discredit themselves, and I do not even have to move my little finger.

[parsifal]

24 hours ago you had not read either source, now all of a sudden you are purporting to quote them. The link you provided is not an extract from Hayward, I will check to see if it is from Murray, but I doubt it. And the numbers you quote as coming from Hayward are not from Hayward. If you are going to quote him like that, quote4 page numbers, and I will check whether you are telling yet more porkies. To read and absorb either of the quoted references, it would take at least a week for each. yet youo are suddenly an expert on both of them in less than twenty four hours...amazing, from someone i consider to barely literate further more

[lesofprimus]

At least he's putting up some sources Kurfurst.... Urs are what exactly?? Some of Parsifals beiefs may be off some, but the shoe fits on both of ur feet.....

Act civilized guys, enough personal attacks...

[parsifal]

I am prepred to back off from the personal attacks, but this has got to be a level playing field. I am absolutely tired of being abused, assaulted because i dont follow a pr-german line. If people disagree with the arguments i have presented, let come at me with considered argument, not racist f*cking bullshit. Finally I have gotten my temper going, and wont back off unless this happens for the other side as well. Close the thread and warn or ban me if youo must, but this crap has got to stop

[lesofprimus]

not racist f*cking bullshit.

I did not see this... Could u please quote it for me Parsifal... If that is the case, Im gonna get pissed....

[parsifal]

Sorry, i lost my temper, and wasnt making much sense. No racist stuff, but plenty of personal attacks, and real put downs. i resisted for a while, then broke, and started to open up myself.

I dont mind heated debate, and try not to denigrate people,. If a person puts up n uncorroborated opinion, Im okay with that, usually, but when the replies are derogatory, AND unsupported, I get P*ssed. eventually.

Im no saint, and am not afraid to take whatever is going to ber dished out, but i absolutely hate bullying inall of its forms, and do have my limits.

If this guy wants to present his counter argument in a balanced, non-derogatory way, perhaps I will learn something, which is why I am here. If not, then the thread is going to be closed for sure, and other things are going to happen. I am offering a chance to get back on thread, with some decorum, and respect. If not...well, I dont know what will happen

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

At least he's putting up some sources Kurfurst....

From what I can make out of the mix of garbage and verbal insults, he merely repeats the same since the begining of the thread about the lack of spares, 'absymal sortie rates' etc. etc., none of which has been supported so far by anything, in fact contested by Groehler, Janda, Poruba, Price, even Murray etc. while being very generous of titles such as nazi, illitarate, racist, etc. that normally leads to straight banning on civilised boards.

He makes a couple of vague references to Murray and others, hiding behind their authority, but as shown above, those opinions attributed to Murray are wishful.

I have asked him several times now to provide source to some of his previous statements, none come, the only response coming from that direction is a mix of curses and nazi-calling, mixed with a mantra that he had already provided a 'vast amount of sources' and/or he does not have provide any, for some obscure reason.

Urs are what exactly??

For what, exactly? Forgive me I don`t bother to reply line-by-line to the lame hysterics above, I don`t see much point in engaging in what I consider a waste of time.

If you ask what sources I have used so far, the figures come from Groehler, Murray, Price, Janda, Poruba, Shores, and the available transcripts of German unit strenght and serviceability reports from the war from the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg, either from primary or secondary sources, while some of the facts I mentioned like German AFV chassis are self-evident with even the most basic research (I don`t think we have to into lenght, that, for example, the Panzer III and IV used the same engine, or that the StuG III/IV, Jagdpanzer IV, Hummel, StuH 42, Brummbär etc. used either the III or IV chassis, and the same engine of course. It is evident.) our excited friend appearantly missed to do, probably being too busy with pumping up more bile, being in a dire lack of other qualities.

Some of Parsifals beiefs may be off some, but the shoe fits on both of ur feet.....

I do not think I have described anyone else in this thread

illiterate,
a nazi,
uneducated
wishul for extermination of races,
wishful of burning of books,
bullshit-opinioned,
with swastikas marching through his head,
incredibly stupid,
very ill informed,
Idiot Gerry
liar
racist

and all sorts of other nice things. Parsifal on the other hand did, and it is not the first time he expresses his dislike of others challenging his opinion in such ugly manner, all in one post.

So I am in great doubt if any of us disagreeing with parsifal would really wear the same shoe.

[evangilder]

Alright, enough is enough. I am closing this thread. Both of you guys need to step away from the keyboard and cool off.