Dog fights on the History channel

[Udet]

Originally Posted by drgondog

I don't disagree with you but you need to come up with some facts and references to refute the ones I posted?

Bill, he will not come up with any for he has none. His sole mission here is to defend the Bolshevik view point [a very weak defence by the way].

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Udet

Bill, he will not come up with any for he has none. His sole mission here is to defend the Bolshevik view point [a very weak defence by the way].

Adrian - your avatar is, as always, intriguing.. Is she demonstrating high buoyancy, biological, flotation devices?

Does the Bolshevik view point admit the existance of such devices?

[stasoid]

At the end of December, 1942, JG54 began to change their BF-109's on FW-190A-4, which was superior to BF-109 in most regards. But number of losses did not went down. Total change to FW-190 was only completed by May, 1943.
On January 9, already known to us Lutenant Golubev, had been leading flight of 4 I-16 type 29 from the 4th GIAP. He attack in area of Ladoga Lake German fighter of unknown type and destroyed it. Second German fighter had been damaged by Golubev wingman, but he manage to excape to the clouds. He crashed later.

JG54 lost two new FW-190's and two aces. To the home base it Gatchina did not return pilots from the staff "shtaffel" Alfred Detke(33 victories) and Joseph Brehtl(27 victories). It was his FW-190 was damaged by Golubev's wingman. Berhtl attempted to crash land on the fuselage and was killed on impact North-East of Mgi.”



4 GIAP/VVS-KBF continued operating I-16s until 1943. This I-16 was brought down by a pilot of I./JG 54 in the same area where 4 GIAP/VVS-KBF operated.

Comment: Not really 4 GIAP, but 4 GIAP/VVS-KBF. Vasiliy Golubev’s rank at that time was that of a Kapitan. On January 9, 1943, JG 54 registered no losses.

Black Cross/Red Star: Air War Over the Eastern Front by Christer Bergstrom

Summary of Axis and Soviet Aircraft production during the war

----- Soviet German Italian Hungarian Romanian Japanese
1941 15,735 11,776 3,503 5,088
1942 25,436 15,556 2,818 6 8,861
1943 34,845 25,527 967 267 1,000 16,693
1944 40,246 39,807 - 773 28,180
1945 20,052 7,544 - - 8,263

Eastern Front (World War II) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Both the British and the American public have long been told that “we won the war” and D-Day, in particular, has been built up as the decisive moment. The American D-Day Museum has been adopted as the national tribute to the war and Steven Spielberg, the director of Saving Private Ryan and co-producer of Flags of Our Fathers, which is just about to open, seems to have made it a mission to perpetuate Churchill’s myth.

After talking at Cambridge recently about the preponderance of the eastern front and the scale of the Red Army’s triumph, I was accosted by an angry young British historian. “Don’t you realise that we were pinning down 56 German divisions in France alone,” he said. “Without that the Red Army would have been heavily defeated.” What is less acknowledged is that without the Red Army pulverising 150 divisions, the allies would never have landed.


Proportions, however, are crucial. Since 75%-80% of all German losses were inflicted on the eastern front it follows that the efforts of the western allies accounted for only 20%-25%. Furthermore, since the British Army deployed no more than 28 divisions as compared with the American army’s 99, the British contribution to victory must have been in the region of 5%-6%. Britons who imagine that “we won the war” need to think again.

How we didn't win the war . . . but the Russians did - Times Online

But what American has ever heard of Operation Bagration? June 1944 signifies Omaha Beach, not the crossing of the Dvina River. Yet the Soviet summer offensive was several times larger than Operation Overlord (the invasion of Normandy), both in the scale of forces engaged and the direct cost to the Germans.

By the end of summer, the Red army had reached the gates of Warsaw as well as the Carpathian passes commanding the entrance to central Europe. Soviet tanks had caught Army Group Centre in steel pincers and destroyed it. The Germans would lose more than 300,000 men in Belorussia alone. Another huge German army had been encircled and would be annihilated along the Baltic coast. The road to Berlin had been opened

It is thus all the more important to recall that - despite Stalin, the NKVD and the massacre of a generation of Bolshevik leaders - the Red army still retained powerful elements of revolutionary fraternity. In its own eyes, and that of the slaves it freed from Hitler, it was the greatest liberation army in history. Moreover, the Red army of 1944 was still a Soviet army. The generals who led the breakthrough on the Dvina included a Jew (Chernyakovskii), an Armenian (Bagramyan), and a Pole (Rokossovskii). In contrast to the class-divided and racially segregated American and British forces, command in the Red army was an open, if ruthless, ladder of opportunity.

Comment: Saving Private Ivan | World news | The Guardian

[Udet]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Adrian - your avatar is, as always, intriguing.. Is she demonstrating high buoyancy, biological, flotation devices?

Does the Bolshevik view point admit the existance of such devices?

Hahahaa...

Something like that...given the current context of things you have surely heard about global warming...i´ve been conducting extensive research and testing of alternative personal flotation devices (APFDs) which might help increasing survability of people living in islands and coastlines when the melting of the polar ice caps causes sea levels to rise in such way their cities and lands will be inundated. A chep accessible solution...

[Lucky13]

Doesn't logbooks etc. somtimes get damaged during attacks even if the ship itself get sunk, by fire or water? Has it never happened that a ship has lost OR damaged its paper work and have had to begin fro scratch?

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

I just watched "Death of the Luftwaffe." It was great! So cool!

[DauntlessDriver]

I must say, Dogfights is one of the few programs left that's cool to watch！

I have the entire first season on DVD... does anyone know if the second season is out yet?

[rochie]

hey les thanks a bunch for the dogfights you tube list on pge 7, i've just spent most of my day trawling through it catching all the episodes i've missed.
much appreciated

karl

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

You can download episodes from Amazon and Itunes for about $ 2.00.


I was suprised, but it's true!

[lesofprimus]

Karl, ur welcome man...

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by stasoid

4 GIAP/VVS-KBF continued operating I-16s until 1943. This I-16 was brought down by a pilot of I./JG 54 in the same area where 4 GIAP/VVS-KBF operated.

Summary of Axis and Soviet Aircraft production during the war

----- Soviet German Italian Hungarian Romanian Japanese
1941 15,735 11,776 3,503 5,088
1942 25,436 15,556 2,818 6 8,861
1943 34,845 25,527 967 267 1,000 16,693
1944 40,246 39,807 - 773 28,180
1945 20,052 7,544 - - 8,263

Where are the stats for US Lend Lease aircraft
?

Both the British and the American public have long been told that “we won the war” and D-Day, in particular, has been built up as the decisive moment. The American D-Day Museum has been adopted as the national tribute to the war and Steven Spielberg, the director of Saving Private Ryan and co-producer of Flags of Our Fathers, which is just about to open, seems to have made it a mission to perpetuate Churchill’s myth.

After talking at Cambridge recently about the preponderance of the eastern front and the scale of the Red Army’s triumph, I was accosted by an angry young British historian. “Don’t you realise that we were pinning down 56 German divisions in France alone,” he said. “Without that the Red Army would have been heavily defeated.” What is less acknowledged is that without the Red Army pulverising 150 divisions, the allies would never have landed.

Absent the Brits defeating the LW during the BoB - Germany launches against the USSR much earlier, with totally devastating results for USSR.

Proportions, however, are crucial. Since 75%-80% of all German losses were inflicted on the eastern front it follows that the efforts of the western allies accounted for only 20%-25%.

That may be true for ground losses. Probably not close for air losses.

Furthermore, since the British Army deployed no more than 28 divisions as compared with the American army’s 99, the British contribution to victory must have been in the region of 5%-6%. Britons who imagine that “we won the war” need to think again.

See above for BoB and Battle of Atlantic and perhaps re-think your comments?

But what American has ever heard of Operation Bagration? June 1944 signifies Omaha Beach, not the crossing of the Dvina River. Yet the Soviet summer offensive was several times larger than Operation Overlord (the invasion of Normandy), both in the scale of forces engaged and the direct cost to the Germans.

The really neat thing about the Overlord op is that all of Europe did not fall under the USSR boot and 'peaceful re-education'

It is thus all the more important to recall that - despite Stalin, the NKVD and the massacre of a generation of Bolshevik leaders - the Red army still retained powerful elements of revolutionary fraternity. In its own eyes, and that of the slaves it freed from Hitler, it was the greatest liberation army in history.

Are you serious? you consider the USSR a "liberation army'? East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Rumania? Poland? Hungary???? YMBSM. All glorious People's Republics, god fearing, free voting?


Moreover, the Red army of 1944 was still a Soviet army. The generals who led the breakthrough on the Dvina included a Jew (Chernyakovskii), an Armenian (Bagramyan), and a Pole (Rokossovskii). In contrast to the class-divided and racially segregated American and British forces, command in the Red army was an open, if ruthless, ladder of opportunity.

ROFLMAO - you have zero idea what you are talking about with respect to the US Citizen Soldier..

Comment: Saving Private Ivan | World news | The Guardian

I know I can always count on the Guardian and Pravda to have the objective facts and viewpoints. Thanks for the links to the irrefutable 'truth'.

[renrich]

It does seem as if the North African campaign, the Invasion of Sicily, the Italian Campaign as well as the BOB, Murmansk convoys, Battle of the Atlantic, etc. are being ignored by our Soviet apologist. Of course there is also no mention of how the brave Soviet leaders were ready to declare war on Japan after the US and UK defeated the Japs. I am an American and actually lived during WW2 and I was always well aware of the Soviet contribution to the defeat of Hitler and am also aware of the invasion of Poland by the USSR after they were attacked by the Nazis. I am also experienced enough to take battlefield claims by the Soviets with a large dose of salt.

[Njaco]

Those Poles were really liberated in Katyn Forest and nobody fessed up until 1989. Theres liberation for you.

Oh and what was Stalin's hissy-fit with Churchill and Roosevelt about a second front if the 'liberation' army was all powerful?

Granted, Hitler couldn't be defeated without USSR or any of the Allies for that matter, regardless of the percentage of the claim. But it wasn't a Russian lone gunman.

And don't misconstrue the stopping of the Wehrmacht at Moskow as a great Russian triumph. Without overstretched supply lines and change of objectives, the jack-boots would have been heard stomping all the way to the Pacific.

[stasoid]

Where are the stats for US Lend Lease aircraft?

14.000 US Lend Lease aircrafts in addition to 140.000 produced in the USSR? It's 10%. Beter then nothing but it's still only 10%.

Absent the Brits defeating the LW during the BoB - Germany launches against the USSR much earlier, with totally devastating results for USSR.

Defeating Luftwaffe? Wow!
Germany lost 1900 aircrafts out of 4000, Britain lost 1500 out of 1900. Who defeated whom?
In 1940 and 1941 Germany produced 18.000 aircrafts.

The really neat thing about the Overlord op is that all of Europe did not fall under the USSR boot and 'peaceful re-education'

Another really "neat thing" is that hundreds, even thousands of nazi war criminals escaped justice. Instead of going to jail they were given american citizenship and later put on CIA and NASA's paycheck.

Are you serious? you consider the USSR a "liberation army'? East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Rumania? Poland? Hungary???? YMBSM. All glorious People's Republics, god fearing, free voting?

Well, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria were all nazi allies at that time. What did you expect Stalin to do? Soviets just lost 27 mln lives. Right, he created a buffer zone installing puppet goverments in Eastern Europe to protect his country from possible invasions from The West in future. He was an evil but a wise man in some respects.

[stasoid]

Originally Posted by renrich

I was always well aware of the Soviet contribution to the defeat of Hitler and am also aware of the invasion of Poland by the USSR after they were attacked by the Nazis.

Invasion of Poland? Without a single shot fired? What's your defenition of invasion? Why didnt Poland fight back?
Answer is simple: those territories of western Ukraine and Belarus had never belonged to Poland. Poland stole them from Russian Empire thanks to revolutionary chaos in Russia in 1917-20, Stalin returned them back and now those lands are parts of Ukraine and Belarus as they used to be for 1000 years. Poland has never claimed them back.