Dog fights on the History channel

[Haztoys]

If any shell 30mm and or other wise does not hit "bone" (something of substance motor, fuel tank, tail, longrod) it keeps moving ...If you don't hit bone when you shot a person they can keep going..Just do to a round being big has nothing to do with it ... Ground small arms fire downed alot of planes...

And the said P-51 hit by the Me-262 30mm did not hit bone so it hit the wing and out the other side ..I'm sure it happend all the time..At that time in the war who knows what the Me-262 was spitting out the 30mm.. I'm sure the not all exsplosive around went off .. Some were I read a lot more around did not go off then people think...

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Haztoys

If any shell 30mm and or other wise does not hit "bone" (something of substance motor, fuel tank, tail, longrod) it keeps moving ...If you don't hit bone when you shot a person they can keep going..Just do to a round being big has nothing to do with it ... Ground small arms fire downed alot of planes...

And the said P-51 hit by the Me-262 30mm did not hit bone so it hit the wing and out the other side ..I'm sure it happend all the time..At that time in the war who knows what the Me-262 was spitting out the 30mm.. I'm sure the not all exsplosive around went off .. Some were I read a lot more around did not go off then people think...

a very good analogy

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by Haztoys

If any shell 30mm and or other wise does not hit "bone" (something of substance motor, fuel tank, tail, longrod) it keeps moving ...If you don't hit bone when you shot a person they can keep going..Just do to a round being big has nothing to do with it ... Ground small arms fire downed alot of planes...

And the said P-51 hit by the Me-262 30mm did not hit bone so it hit the wing and out the other side ..I'm sure it happend all the time..At that time in the war who knows what the Me-262 was spitting out the 30mm.. I'm sure the not all exsplosive around went off .. Some were I read a lot more around did not go off then people think...

Full with logical reasons and explanation, nothing to be added on my part

Regards
Kruska

[kool kitty89]

Bill I don't think that was his question, he wanted to know if there was a term in english describing a hit that results in total distruction/a kill, opposed to a hit that directly impacts on a major portion of the aircrafts structure.

And personally I cant think of a decisive term for that, maybe critical hit, but that doesn't quite fit.

[kool kitty89]

And Haztoys I don't think it would be very likely for a round to go "through and through" they're (mine shell) designed to deonate just after prnnetrating the skin, and some (type N) have additional fuzing for contact with liquids.
Plus at that angle (assuming the depiction in the animation is correct) a shot hitting the wing at an angle to go straight through isn't likely.

However as I mentioned earlier, and Soren adressed, a glancing blow (somewhat analogous to a grazing bullet) could easily have accured at such an angle and thus hit without activating the fuze and simply bounce off.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Bill I don't think that was his question, he wanted to know if there was a term in english describing a hit that results in total distruction/a kill, opposed to a hit that directly impacts on a major portion of the aircrafts structure.

And personally I cant think of a decisive term for that, maybe critical hit, but that doesn't quite fit.

I was reponding to his second comment - since I was a party to the 'heated debate'

I thought you answered his first question well - and it was obvious that the 88mm did in fact make a 'direct hit' fused properly and went off in the middle of the bomber.

Beyond that it's all about expectations regarding what an 88mm Should do (or 30mm Mk108 He (M)) versus what it Did do.

The 88mm did hit a major portion of the airframe structure - 'bone' in the hunting vernacular but this prey Did run off, to die finally in a boneyard or live as a hanger queen in UK.

Try Obliteration to describe the 'hit' description he was looking for - as contrast with Direct Hit (but not fatal).. or Fatal.. or Mortal

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

And Haztoys I don't think it would be very likely for a round to go "through and through" they're (mine shell) designed to deonate just after prnnetrating the skin, and some (type N) have additional fuzing for contact with liquids.
Plus at that angle (assuming the depiction in the animation is correct) a shot hitting the wing at an angle to go straight through isn't likely.

On the other hand hitting .040-.050 thick 2024-T4 isn't like hitting steel plate- it shouldn't glance off - otherwise how would they believe they got hit by a 30mm round?

However as I mentioned earlier, and Soren adressed, a glancing blow (somewhat analogous to a grazing bullet) could easily have accured at such an angle and thus hit without activating the fuze and simply bounce off.

Or the fuze was defective, or some Russian slave labor stuffed it with cotton candy, or it burst short of wing causing surface damage but not fatal - who knows?

[kool kitty89]

or some Russian slave labor stuffed it with cotton candy

Yes, all those are good, defective/dud ets or a hit that drtikes very close to parallel to the wing surface and doesn't activate the fuze and bounces off.

But I still don't think the scenario where the shell just punches through the wing is likely.

[parsifal]

Hi Kruska

A direct hit in my opinion is where the shell contacts the aircraft, prior to detonation. the shell may or may not explode.

My point in that regard was perhaps a little unclear. The main point I was trying to make was that direct hits by German AA (heavy) was such a rare event as to be not worth worrying about. I was getting a little worried that the thread was likley to be closed unless we were able to cool things off a little

[Haztoys]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Or the fuze was defective, or some Russian slave labor stuffed it with cotton candy, or it burst short of wing causing surface damage but not fatal - who knows?

This is what I was trying to say..I have a friend who did 40+ missons as nav of a B-24 and some time as a P-51 pilot.. He said there seam to be less explosive rounds at the start of the time he was nav then at the closeing of the war..He did not know why...He never was in combat in the P-51..

I'm sure at the time the Me-262 came out and the Germans loosing the war ..It was hard to keep up and keep quality ..And the stuff I've read doing work with slaves was almost a wast of time ...

Don't get all worked up guys and get this lock.. It was war time and any thing could of happened and did happen..

And if the said P-51 pilot the was hit by the 30mm made it back to base...He would know if it he had been hit or not...

There were planes that got hit with one or two small rounds in the right place and went down ...And other planes that got the Sh$!t kicked out of them with bigger rounds and made it home ...How your luck... Or lack of it..

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by parsifal

Hi Kruska

A direct hit in my opinion is where the shell contacts the aircraft, prior to detonation. the shell may or may not explode.

My point in that regard was perhaps a little unclear. The main point I was trying to make was that direct hits by German AA (heavy) was such a rare event as to be not worth worrying about. I was getting a little worried that the thread was likley to be closed unless we were able to cool things off a little

Hello parsifal,

Don’t worry I am not taking this wrongly, it is just that if in German language you would say; despite a Volltreffer the B-17 made it still home, then this would be very hard to understand since a Volltreffer means “right in Target + detonation on point”, making it highly unlikely for anything to “fly” back that has received a Volltreffer by a 88.

However some pictures clearly indicate a Volltreffer on a B-17, and the bugger still managed to fly home. (Which I would not have thought so before) The 88 shell just as someone said before "didn't hit bone".

So it was my mistake assuming that a “direct hit” and a “Volltreffer” might have a different meaning.

Regards
Kruska

[Soren]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Yes, all those are good, defective/dud ets or a hit that drtikes very close to parallel to the wing surface and doesn't activate the fuze and bounces off.

But I still don't think the scenario where the shell just punches through the wing is likely.

Agreed.

The Mine shells were thin walled and fit with fuzes which just wouldn't allow them to go directly through both sides of a wing without exploding. What happened if it was the Minen Geschoss is that it simply bounced off and fell earthward, however the shells were fortunately selfdestructive and exploded after they had travelled a certain distance/time. (Wouldn't want such thinks exploding in peoples backyard)

Now reading about what ammunition types were used operationally it seems that the Me-262's were equipped pretty much exclusively with Mine rounds, so I think we can be fairly certain this was the type which struck Candelaria's wing.

Now as for the effectiveness of the 30mm Mine shell, well it was established that it generally took 5 hits to destroy a bomber, which demonstrates the lethality of the round. Now that coupled with the illustrated effectiveness of the Mine shell, we know a fighter wouldn't survive a hit with detonation from such a round and then fly on, and to think it could not only fly on but also continue to shoot down another two a/c is absurd!

So conclusion must be that the round failed to detonate on impact and the -51 got away with a scare.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Agreed.

The Mine shells were thin walled and fit with fuzes which just wouldn't allow them to go directly through both sides of a wing without exploding. What happened if it was the Minen Geschoss is that it simply bounced off and fell earthward, however the shells were fortunately selfdestructive and exploded after they had travelled a certain distance/time. (Wouldn't want such thinks exploding in peoples backyard)

Now reading about what ammunition types were used operationally it seems that the Me-262's were equipped pretty much exclusively with Mine rounds, so I think we can be fairly certain this was the type which struck Candelaria's wing.

Now as for the effectiveness of the 30mm Mine shell, well it was established that it generally took 5 hits to destroy a bomber, which demonstrates the lethality of the round. Now that coupled with the illustrated effectiveness of the Mine shell, we know a fighter wouldn't survive a hit with detonation from such a round and then fly on, and to think it could not only fly on but also continue to shoot down another two a/c is absurd!

So conclusion must be that the round failed to detonate on impact and the -51 got away with a scare.

That is one conclusion

Education, Experience in Aero/Structures? or is this supposition and speculation?

[kool kitty89]

Even if a P-51 survived a hit from a 30mm mine shell detonation (wingtip, tail, blew a ~2 ft dia hole through wing or fusalage but held together) it would be in no shape to keep dogfighting, except maybe for a very good pilot.

And for refrence:

[Kruska]

Hello kool kitty89,

And I don’t think that a “good” pilot would take the risk of getting himself entangled or pursue a dogfight with a damaged a/c.

Regards
Kruska