Dog fights on the History channel

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by Kruska

Hello davparlr,

come on this has nothing to do with running away. If it makes sense to someone to “sacrifice” himself, well then that is a personal decision, which might not be based on a rational decision.

What good would it do to engage in a fight, with maybe your wings dropping off before you can even fire a shot? Killing yourself for nothing, instead of getting back to base and take on the enemy some other time with an intact aircraft.

Off course every pilot will estimate and judge the damage on his a/c differently and this is where the answer lies, a good pilot will know if he continues or not, a “hero” or hothead will just go for it and get himself probably killed for nothing (besides a medal and his righteous feeling).

Regards
Kruska

Thats why they wear parachutes

[Soren]

Candelaria's -51 was obviously not damaged at all, the 30mm shell just bouncing off the wing. If the 30mm HE(M) projectile had detonated upon hitting the wing it would've either ripped it clean off or caused so much damage that the a/c would've been unable to fly afterwards.

In short: Candelaria saw that his wing was undamaged, with no holes in it, and that the a/c still responded as it always had, and so he decided to go protect the bombers. Nothing hotheaded about that at all.

[kool kitty89]

But if you bail out over enemy teritory you'd almost definitely be captured.

[Soren]

Yes, and that could have fatal consequences, esp. seeing that the Allies were bombing the civilian population to smithereens. I've heard of several Allied pilots being lynched by angry mobs before the German military could get to them.

The German military ofcourse tried their absolute best to capture shot down Allied pilots, hoping they could get valuable information out of them, but unfortunately sometimes angry civilians got there first.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

But if you bail out over enemy teritory you'd almost definitely be captured.

gotta mind like a steel trap there buddy.
Look at this way your a 20yr old kid driving a 2000hp hot rod , you are invincible you have no idea what hit you . the a/c is handling well there is no visible damage of consequence( only visually see about 20% of the aircraft ) all the gauges are ok its running smooth you got fuel and ammo . and your gonna run away cause you heard a bang from what you don't know

[kool kitty89]

I just meant limping home is the better option. Of course you have to realize there's a problem though.
Or at least limping back to friendly territiory before bailing.



But were're way off topic now, and I think the side discussion has been answered anyway.

[Chocks away!]

I found this interesting:

In the Candelaria episode, he describes a Bf-109 that was painted yellow from nose to windscreen.

Now this wouldn't be strange in 1940-1941, but the action took place in April 1945.

Could this marking be a means of identification for the younger pilots to be able to recognize their leader?

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Erich

well I am not for supporting this bogus outfit but I received an email from a good German friend and ex-pilot of the LW. His story covering the Rammkommando Elbe (false name actually) will be aired on Dogfights I believe on the History Channel July 13, 07 in the USA. Sorry not sure when the episode will be covered elsewhere in Europe or ....... ? In any case he has been assured that the History Channel writers are not going to add nor subtract from his story and service record during the war for this part. there may even be some coverage on the Sturmgruppen, happy thought indeed ....

I gave the show a 3 out of 10 with 10 being best

Erich

I agree it's annoying when they muck up the facts or dumb it down for the general public, but in any event it sure beats Oprah & American idol and the other cr@p that is on the tube these days....

[Kruska]

Hello to all Candelarians,

Sorry Guys, partially it is my mistake, I started on this thread after seeing the damaged P-51 on post 176 by drgondog. I mistakenly thought that the discussion was about this a/c. Still thinking about this picture and reflecting onto kool kitty89’s post 239 were he even mentions: “it would be in no shape to keep dogfighting” I forwarded my statement in regards to a “good” pilot.

And pbfoot, sorry to say: Parachutes are the last means to save a pilots live, and not to comfort/encourage him to undertake suicidal, heroic or blunt actions.
Does the CAF teach its pilots to perform flight maneuvers regardless of an a/c condition, but to rely firmly on Martin Baker and a Parachute?

So IMHO a pilot who would get himself into a dogfight with a P-51 as pictured on post 176 or its condition being as described on post 239, would be a “stupid” pilot

As I said IMHO

Regards
Kruska

[Lucky13]

Watching the Kamikaze episode of Dogfights.....bl**dy h*ll War is hell, and Kamikaze must be the 10 level of the same....

Year Date Ship
1944
Oct. 24 Sonoma (ATO-12) (ocean tug)
Oct. 24 LCI(L)-1065 (landing craft, infantry (large))
Oct. 25 St. Lo (CVE-63) (escort carrier)
Nov. 1 Abner Read (DD-526) (destroyer)
Nov. 27 SC-744 (submarine chaser)
Dec. 5 LSM-20 (landing ship, medium)
Dec. 7 Mahan (DD-364) (destroyer)
Dec. 7 LSM-318 (landing ship, medium)
Dec. 7 Ward (APD-16) (high-speed transport)
Dec. 10 William S. Ladd (Liberty cargo ship)
Dec. 10 PT-323 (motor torpedo boat)
Dec. 11 Reid (DD-369) (destroyer)
Dec. 15 LST-472 (landing ship, tank)
Dec. 15 LST-738 (landing ship, tank)
Dec. 18 PT-300 (motor torpedo boat)
Dec. 21 LST-460 (landing ship, tank)
Dec. 21 LST-749 (landing ship, tank)
Dec. 28 John Burke (Liberty cargo ship)
Dec. 30 Porcupine (IX-126) (auxiliary tanker)

1945
Jan. 4 Ommaney Bay (CVE-79) (escort carrier)
Jan. 5 Lewis L. Dyche (Liberty cargo ship)
Jan. 6 Long (DMS-12) (high-speed minesweeper)
Feb. 21 Bismark Sea (CVE-21) (escort carrier)
Apr. 6 Bush (DD-529) (destroyer)
Apr. 6 Colhoun (DD-801) (destroyer)
Apr. 6 Emmons (DMS-22) (high-speed minesweeper)
Apr. 6 Hobbs Victory (cargo ship)
Apr. 6 Logan Victory (cargo ship)
Apr. 7 LST-447 (landing ship, tank)
Apr. 12 Mannert L. Abele (DD-733) (destroyer)
Apr. 12 LCS(L)(3)-33 (landing craft, support (large) (Mk. III))
Apr. 16 Pringle (DD-477) (destroyer)
Apr. 22 Swallow (AM-65) (minesweeper)
Apr. 22 LCS(L)(3)-15 (landing craft, support (large) (Mk. III))
Apr. 27 Canada Victory (cargo ship)
May 3 Little (DD-803) (destroyer)
May 3 LSM(R)-195 (landing ship, medium (rocket))
May 4 Morrison (DD-560) (destroyer)
May 4 Luce (DD-522) (destroyer)
May 4 LSM(R)-190 (landing ship, medium (rocket))
May 4 LSM(R)-194 (landing ship, medium (rocket))
May 25 Bates (APD-47) (high-speed transport)
May 25 LSM-135 (landing ship, medium)
May 28 Drexler (DD-741) (destroyer)
June 10 William D. Porter (DD-579) (destroyer)
June 16 Twiggs (DD-591) (destroyer)
June 21 LSM-59 (landing ship, medium)
June 21 Barry (APD-29) (high-speed transport)
July 29 Callaghan (DD-792) (destroyer)

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Kruska

Hello to all Candelarians,

Sorry Guys, partially it is my mistake, I started on this thread after seeing the damaged P-51 on post 176 by drgondog. I mistakenly thought that the discussion was about this a/c. Still thinking about this picture and reflecting onto kool kitty89’s post 239 were he even mentions: “it would be in no shape to keep dogfighting” I forwarded my statement in regards to a “good” pilot.


So IMHO a pilot who would get himself into a dogfight with a P-51 as pictured on post 176 or its condition being as described on post 239, would be a “stupid” pilot

As I said IMHO

Regards
Kruska

Lol Kruska - the pilot for both of those a/c were my father and both instances were airfield flak - the first pretty obviously 20mm from high deflection. The second was at low altitude also while strafing near Munich - a long way from home. Still not sure what the round was but likely 37 or 40 mm. I don't recall mention of any 30mm flak.

He was not looking for an air battle on the second scenario as he also lost hydraulics, left main gear was damaged and tail wheel were gone. This a/c was his fourth and last Belly Landing at Steeple Morden - and yes that airplane was repaired and flew combat again.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Yes, and that could have fatal consequences, esp. seeing that the Allies were bombing the civilian population to smithereens. I've heard of several Allied pilots being lynched by angry mobs before the German military could get to them.

The German military ofcourse tried their absolute best to capture shot down Allied pilots, hoping they could get valuable information out of them, but unfortunately sometimes angry civilians got there first.

Sometimes German military got there first.

Lt Bill Cullerton, 357FS/355FG was shot down by flak near Ansbach in April, 1945. He was immediately captured and surrendered his .45. The German officer briefly commented to him "for you the war is over and shot him in the stomach and left him to die.

Thanks to a German Catholic Priest Bill Cullerton not only survived but is the last 355th ace still alive.

[pbfoot]

And sometimes they ended up in concentration camps ...my Dads friend and his crew along with others USAAFRAF RCAF spent several months in one of those luxury spas

[Kruska]

And German Airborne officers who were given the word of honor by British or Commonwealth officers found their wounded and left behind comrades slaughtered upon returning as victors during Crete. And US soldiers shoot Wehrmacht soldiers who had surrendered. And German soldiers torched civilians barricaded/looked into churches, and the Russians …………….

Where is this thread wandering to???

Regards
Kruska

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Lol Kruska - the pilot for both of those a/c were my father and both instances were airfield flak - the first pretty obviously 20mm from high deflection. The second was at low altitude also while strafing near Munich - a long way from home. Still not sure what the round was but likely 37 or 40 mm. I don't recall mention of any 30mm flak.

He was not looking for an air battle on the second scenario as he also lost hydraulics, left main gear was damaged and tail wheel were gone. This a/c was his fourth and last Belly Landing at Steeple Morden - and yes that airplane was repaired and flew combat again.

Well your father was or is a smart pilot

Regards
Kruska