Dog fights on the History channel

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Watching the Kamikaze episode of Dogfights.....bl**dy h*ll War is hell, and Kamikaze must be the 10 level of the same....

Wasn't the carrier USS Intrepid also lost to kamikazes?

[rochie]

saw kamikaze today as well
uss laffey what a ship, what a crew

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Kruska

And German Airborne officers who were given the word of honor by British or Commonwealth officers found their wounded and left behind comrades slaughtered upon returning as victors during Crete. And US soldiers shoot Wehrmacht soldiers who had surrendered. And German soldiers torched civilians barricaded/looked into churches, and the Russians …………….

Where is this thread wandering to???

Regards
Kruska

Well Kruska some people just love to pick a fight when'ever the opportunity arises. Just ignore it.

All sides commited war crimes during WW2, that's the reality.

The German military had special POW camps, so did the Americans, British, Soviets & Japanese, and I'm sure none of them were anything close to luxury resorts.

No side during the war was "evil" as many like us to believe (Some were unknowningly fighting for the wrong cause, but that's another story), the far majority of soldiers from each side just fought for their families and home, that's it.

Anyway the point is that the German military tried their best to get hold of shot down Allied pilots and vice versa, however sometimes angry mobs got there first (Quite a few captured German pilots were lynched or shot as-well).

All sides had their bad guys, however one must keep in mind that these represented the extreme minority, even in the Waffen SS. This is the very reason behind the forming of special shooting squads, these consisted of the few men cold blooded enough to carry out the cruel orders from men such as Himmler. These men weren't well liked by the rest of the army who litterally saw them as evil individuals.

But again thankfully 99% were just like us normal people; completely unlike those evil executioners who formed the dreaded shooting squads.

German soldiers treating the wounds of a captured Soviet soldier:

[buzzard]

Freebird,

The Intrepid was damaged by 4 kamikazes (3 separate incidents) and had earlier been struck by an air-launched torpedo. She had a very eventful career, and the last time I saw her in NYC, she looked great (I think she has been refurbished since I was aboard her)

JL

[Haztoys]

Originally Posted by rochie

saw kamikaze today as well
uss laffey what a ship, what a crew

...I never knew the kamikaze groups were so large ...50 planes

And...

History is jacked around by the winners... So to say it was all one side is nuts ..Come on guys ...

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by Soren

Well Kruska some people just love to pick a fight when'ever the opportunity arises. Just ignore it.

All sides commited war crimes during WW2, that's the reality.

The German military had special POW camps, so did the Americans, British, Soviets & Japanese, and I'm sure none of them were anything close to luxury resorts.

No side during the war was "evil" as many like us to believe (Some were unknowningly fighting for the wrong cause, but that's another story), the far majority of soldiers from each side just fought for their families and home, that's it.

Anyway the point is that the German military tried their best to get hold of shot down Allied pilots and vice versa, however sometimes angry mobs got there first (Quite a few captured German pilots were lynched or shot as-well).

All sides had their bad guys, however one must keep in mind that these represented the extreme minority, even in the Waffen SS. This is the very reason behind the forming of special shooting squads, these consisted of the few men cold blooded enough to carry out the cruel orders from men such as Himmler. These men weren't well liked by the rest of the army who litterally saw them as evil individuals.

But again thankfully 99% were just like us normal people; completely unlike those evil executioners who formed the dreaded shooting squads.

German soldiers treating the wounds of a captured Soviet soldier:

There is nothing civilized about warfare. It reduces people to basic emotions. It would be very hard for me to be chivalrous to a shot down pilot knowing he had probably just dropped bombs on my family or shot down a friend. This occured on all fronts. However, some atrocities are just caused by meanness at shown by the Bataan death march. War is hell and to try to make it into a civilized affair is often fool hardy.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by Kruska

Hello davparlr,


Off course every pilot will estimate and judge the damage on his a/c differently and this is where the answer lies, a good pilot will know if he continues or not, a “hero” or hothead will just go for it and get himself probably killed for nothing (besides a medal and his righteous feeling).

Regards
Kruska

Apparently, he made a "good" decision.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by davparlr

There is nothing civilized about warfare. It reduces people to basic emotions. It would be very hard for me to be chivalrous to a shot down pilot knowing he had probably just dropped bombs on my family or shot down a friend. This occured on all fronts. However, some atrocities are just caused by meanness at shown by the Bataan death march. War is hell and to try to make it into a civilized affair is often fool hardy.

Agreed, that's what I was trying to say as-well.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Agreed, that's what I was trying to say as-well.

Soren - you have thrown insults in my directions on so many threads.

You have posed as alternatively an expert in aero and structures and denigrated my own background.

Every time you post I will ask you to post the credentials as either an academic, or cite your experience in the airframe industry to match or exceed my own.

I have asked you on at least five different threads to cite the background you chose sufficient to curse me and insult my knowledge.

You have avoided each challenge and continue to slide on the subject.

Again, what are the academic credits you have achieved and what aerospace industry experience do you claim?

warm regards,

Bill

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by davparlr

There is nothing civilized about warfare. It reduces people to basic emotions. It would be very hard for me to be chivalrous to a shot down pilot knowing he had probably just dropped bombs on my family or shot down a friend. This occured on all fronts. However, some atrocities are just caused by meanness at shown by the Bataan death march. War is hell and to try to make it into a civilized affair is often fool hardy.

Dave - that about sums it up for WWII vets - both sides..

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Lol Kruska - the pilot for both of those a/c were my father and both instances were airfield flak - the first pretty obviously 20mm from high deflection. The second was at low altitude also while strafing near Munich - a long way from home. Still not sure what the round was but likely 37 or 40 mm. I don't recall mention of any 30mm flak.

He was not looking for an air battle on the second scenario as he also lost hydraulics, left main gear was damaged and tail wheel were gone. This a/c was his fourth and last Belly Landing at Steeple Morden - and yes that airplane was repaired and flew combat again.

What an honor to know someone, especially you dad, who participated in such history. My hat is off to all of you who have gone in harms way to fight for what you believe in, whether it is WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, or Iraq. I served my duty during the Vietnam era, but it was on a cargo plane. The biggest threat I faced was flying in a plane with me as pilot.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by davparlr

What an honor to know someone, especially you dad, who participated in such history. My hat is off to all of you who have gone in harms way to fight for what you believe in, whether it is WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, or Iraq. I served my duty during the Vietnam era, but it was on a cargo plane. The biggest threat I faced was flying in a plane with me as pilot.

Dave - I just returned from the 355th Reunion at Davis Monthan hosted by the 355th CO and all the pilots and airmen. It was the mother of all reunions.

When I have all the photos in hand, including many wives and daughters in the A-10 simulators beating up Taliban north of Kandahar I will start posting them. The latest 'gen' simulators are extremely impressive.

The reason I bring it it up is that for the first time the Red River Rats, including Colonels Thorsness and Billy Sparks and John Piowaty and so many F-105/RB-66/A-7 vets from Viet Nam, joined up with the WWII and Iraqi Freedom and current warriors serving in Afghanistan and Iraq... as well as the ground crews, officers and airmen who served in peace and wartime.

It was an incredible experience seeing the warriors (ALL that served both air and ground) of this great combat unit come together in one place.

Another unique aspect of the reunion is that the visiting RAF Wing of EuroFighters attended Friday Night Roll Call and Dinner so we had a great chance to 'talk shop' about their new bird versus F-22.

As to the Hog - I have a new favorite airplane. The firepower demo at Gila Range 3, where the strafing runs were about 100 yards from the tower was awesome. Pretty much should wear earplugs when that muzzle braked beast rips off 100 round bursts.

The entire unit is Sierra Hotel -

That is my oblique way of thanking You for your service

[HJERIA]

Hi there, I would appreciate If you can help me finding the Falkland Island Chapters
Thanx...

HJ

[ju87]

dogfights goes on dvd june 24 2008. I'm going to buy the second series as well.

ju87

[Udet]

This will be a hell of an unconstructive posting, but what the hell...

Just watched a few minutes of these History Channel productions...holy cow...its better than Dumbo, Snow White, Bambi and Cinderella put together.

Yeah, exactly what i did expect from the History Channel: USAAF veterans with a huge smile on their faces lecturing the audience on how sportive and blithe, virtually free of danger, their missions over occuppied Europe were.

Luftwaffe pilots...easier to outwit, outmanouver and -of course- shoot down than attempting to take the milk bottle away from the mouth of a baby.

Some highlights: A P-47 got badly hit by a Bf 109, a wing catching fire, but the P-47 (in flames) manages to shoot down the Bf 109 that hit him (yeah sure)...another old USAAF guy (big smile on his face) describing how he saw a "poor" German pilot trapped in his cockpit -while still flying-, and not just that, he recalled the poor German by saying "his hands were trembling" -Luftwaffe boys were such a bunch p*ussies- and of course...the German pilot died.

So German fighters are extremely easy to shot down, while the props of the uberUSAAF just dont go down when badly hit...even in flames they can still shot down enemy planes. Reminds me of those stories of Bodenplatter, of P-51´s "shooting down" German planes while still runinng through the runway with the undercarriage still down!!!

Oh well, know i perhaps know where Rambo had its origins.


Had i watched these programs 6 or 7 years ago, during my early/mid teens, i would have been big time seriously pissed off; now i only laugh.