Dog fights on the History channel

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Udet

This will be a hell of an unconstructive posting, but what the hell...

Just watched a few minutes of these History Channel productions...holy cow...its better than Dumbo, Snow White, Bambi and Cinderella put together.

Yeah, exactly what i did expect from the History Channel: USAAF veterans with a huge smile on their faces lecturing the audience on how sportive and blithe, virtually free of danger, their missions over occuppied Europe were.

Luftwaffe pilots...easier to outwit, outmanouver and -of course- shoot down than attempting to take the milk bottle away from the mouth of a baby.

Some highlights: A P-47 got badly hit by a Bf 109, a wing catching fire, but the P-47 (in flames) manages to shoot down the Bf 109 that hit him (yeah sure)...another old USAAF guy (big smile on his face) describing how he saw a "poor" German pilot trapped in his cockpit -while still flying-, and not just that, he recalled the poor German by saying "his hands were trembling" -Luftwaffe boys were such a bunch p*ussies- and of course...the German pilot died.

So German fighters are extremely easy to shot down, while the props of the uberUSAAF just dont go down when badly hit...even in flames they can still shot down enemy planes. Reminds me of those stories of Bodenplatter, of P-51´s "shooting down" German planes while still runinng through the runway with the undercarriage still down!!!

Oh well, know i perhaps know where Rambo had its origins.


Had i watched these programs 6 or 7 years ago, during my early/mid teens, i would have been big time seriously pissed off; now i only laugh.

Adrian - I would far rather talk about the bio-floatation devices on your avatars .. now THOSE are worth spending a little energy on!

[kool kitty89]

What episode(s) were you watching?

I've only seen ~3/4 of the episodes (those on youtube), but I've rarely seen anything close to that.
(plenty of inaccuracies, but mostly technical, or modeling the CGI scenario wrong)

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Udet

This will be a hell of an unconstructive posting, but what the hell...

Just watched a few minutes of these History Channel productions...holy cow...its better than Dumbo, Snow White, Bambi and Cinderella put together.

Had i watched these programs 6 or 7 years ago, during my early/mid teens, i would have been big time seriously pissed off; now i only laugh.

Not surprising that they are US biased, made in the USA....


It would be interesting if some German or French or Russian made "dogfight" type programs were available as well.

[Grampa]

There should really be some journalistic review from other pilots who flew in other contries of WW2. Not only Brittan, German or Japanese, but Russian, Italian, French, Belgian, Finnland and more other. It whould be weary interesting for me tho hear a Japanese or german pilot from thers point of wiew of theres experience and how hey countermeasured the treat from allied forces or what untold stories from Russian pilots has to tell, all those pilots must have a mutch more of epic stories in aircombat than the American.

[kool kitty89]

The bias, and inaccuracies granted, I haven't seen the kind of things Adrian is describing specifically. Inless he's grossly exaggerating it sounds like they're being disrespectful to the other combatants, mocking them. (which I haven't seen on the episodes I've seen)
The closest I can remember seeing is a mustang pilot referring to the 109's as "easy meat" but even then he said something like "up until this fight we called the 109's easy meat" corrected by his dogfight being depicted, in which he's outperformed by a 109.


And there's at least one episode specifically on the German side, with sme German veterans interviewed. The "Luftwaffe's Deadliest Mission" episode -on the ramming attacks- YouTube - Dogfights - Luftwaffe's Deadliest Mission (1 of 5)

And in "the first dogfighters" (WWI) the first example is quoted from Udet's diary. YouTube - Doghfights - First Dogfighters (1 of 5)

[kool kitty89]

Here's the clip I was talking about: YouTube - Dogfights: P-51: Don Bryan is a stud

From: YouTube - Dogfights - P-51 Mustang (1 of 5)

[Udet]

Kool Kitty:

The episode i was referring to -of the burning Jug that allegedly shot down the Bf 109 that set it on fire- is about Bodenplatte. Even if the word was not mentioned in the minutes i watched, the narrator mentions "January 1st, 1945, over Belgium", the dogfights occurring over a snow covered landscape. Such date and area should mean Bodenplatte.

And no, i am not grossly exaggerating anything...its pure allied superhighway living.

Aha! Isn´t it sexy, cute and pretty that when a Luftwaffe vet is finally presented in one of those episodes, the one they decided to bring forward is one that belonged to that thing known as Sonderkommando Elbe? If presented, a Luftwaffe veteran should sound pathetic and almost begging for mercy.

I am sure that theres still a number of Luftwaffe veterans with a mean battle record out there that of course will never be presented in the series.


Bill...you know, you are the coolest guy on earth and i mean it... That was a formidable way to tell me and everybody else that my previous post sucked big time huh?

I am definitely sending you the best damn looking bottle of red wine i can buy over here.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Udet

Kool Kitty:

The episode i was referring to -of the burning Jug that allegedly shot down the Bf 109 that set it on fire- is about Bodenplatte. Even if the word was not mentioned in the minutes i watched, the narrator mentions "January 1st, 1945, over Belgium", the dogfights occurring over a snow covered landscape. Such date and area should mean Bodenplatte.

And no, i am not grossly exaggerating anything...its pure allied superhighway living.

Aha! Isn´t cute and pretty that when a Luftwaffe vet is finally presented in one of those episodes, the one they decided to bring forward is one that belonged to that thing known as Sonderkommando Elbe? If presented, a Luftwaffe veteran should sound pathetic and almost begging for mercy.

I am sure that theres still a number of Luftwaffe veterans with a mean battle record out there that of course will never be presented in the series.


Bill...you know, you are the coolest guy on earth and i mean it... That was a formidable way to tell me and everybody else that my previous post sucked big time huh?

I am definitely sending you the best damn looking bottle of red wine i can buy over here.

Adrian - actually I wasn't telling you to go run off and play while the big boys suck on a scotch..

I agree a lot of the points. I have sat around in rooms listening to fighter pilots of all sides for nearly 60 years now (the previous three I wasn't listening}

All, to a man greatly respected the guy he was trying to kill (so that he may live), most thought, individually, that He was the best fighter pilot in the room but acknowledged his buddies and foes were 'pretty good' - and every one had at least one or two good stories about the time they nearly 'bought it'..from the 'other guy'

What they were all mostly saying is that "I fought a tough war against the best and brightest the other team had to throw at me, that many of my friends didn't get laid after the game, and I'm glad to be alive"

Through Art Fielder, Bud Fortier, Bill Lyons and several others engaged with not only Dog Fights but also Military Channel - they tried to donate my services as a pre-screen "consultant" to help cut out the crap - but didn't hear anything back from them..

On the other hand Chateau Lafitte Rothchild 57 would taste pretty good, Kid..

Grin

[kool kitty89]

That would be

season 2 episode 16. Death of the Luftwaffe (3/7/0: The Luftwaffe's last great offensive, called Operation Bodenplatte, occurred on January 1, 1945. Bob Brulle, Sanford K. Moats, Alden Rigby, and Richard Creamer were American pilots of the 352d Fighter Group whose airbase, known as Y-29, was attacked by fighters. After this day, the Luftwaffe was shattered as an effective fighting force.

Haven't seen that one...

[Soren]

Originally Posted by freebird

Not surprising that they are US biased, made in the USA....


It would be interesting if some German or French or Russian made "dogfight" type programs were available as well.

Fully agreed freebird.

[davparlr]

I believe this is the story told on Dogfights as related by Wikipedia. This should be easily verified.

Y-29
One notable failed attack was on the airstrip at Asch. The leader of the 487th squadron, 352nd Fighter Group, Lt. Colonel John Meyer, anticipated German activity and had a flight of twelve P-51s about to take off on a combat patrol when the attack began. They took off under fire, and with the help of eight P-47s of the 366th (already in the air), the 487th shot down 23 German fighters out of 61 attackers. Several pilots made 'Ace' status that day; two had four confirmed kills apiece. No P-51s were lost, two were damaged, and one P-51 was damaged on the ground. The 336th Fighter Group lost 3 P-47s shot down[17], two of the pilots were uninjured, the third, 2./Lt Brunetti, was killed by a Bf 109[5]

The unit was awarded the Distinguished Unit Citation, the only one awarded to a fighter group in Northern Europe.[18] The 366th was credited with eight kills, and anti-aircraft guns with seven more, though some double-counting is likely. Luftwaffe records indicate JG 11 lost 28 fighters. Four German pilots (two were wounded) made it back to German-held territory, while four were captured, the remaining twenty were killed[19]

Of the German pilots killed that day was Günther Specht, a 34 victory ace. Pilot Officer Dave Johnson had claimed he destroyed a Bf 109 over Y-29 and that the Messerschmitt had "belly landed" not far from the field. After being shot down himself, Johnson then drove over to the wreck. The Bf 109 was still intact, but the pilot was dead. Johnson claimed that the dead pilot's Identification Card named him as a Lieutenant Colonel (Oberst) Specht. The claim has been disproven by German records that indicate Specht flew Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Wknr. 205033, and that he was ranked as a Major. Johnson's actual victim that day was Oberleutnant August Engel[20].

[KrazyKraut]

I just can't stand watching these, the dramatic music and the equally dramatic narrator just get on my nerves after about 5 minutes.

I hate "infotainment".

[Soren]

Luftwaffe records indicate JG 11 lost 28 fighters.

Where is this from ??

[Kruska]

Hello Soren,

Did a little research, but the incident seems to be only described by the below source. Sofar I did not find any other besides Wiki..

The Wartime Memories Project - Y29 Asch

Missing In Action - JG 11

This list actually only accounts for 6 pilots from JG 11 killed on that day; however I wouldn’t know if this list is reliable or complete.

The Legend of Y-29 : Gathering of Eagles

gives a good account of Y29 and "nice" aircraft paintings.

Regards
Kruska

[Soren]

That sounds a lot more reasonable. 23 German a/c shot down for no losses is pure fantasy.