Dog fights on the History channel

[Udet]

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[Erich]

Whoa Udet you've got the book and the authors all wrong. Ron is deceased and John knows quite abit about Allied/LW coverage; his next venture is with A. U. on completing the book covering JG 6.

lets face reality here, 01.01.45 was a death trap for the LW in ALL respects there was absolutely nothing good that came from it, no-one on this board or any other forum can argue to affirm that it helped the LW. The casualties for the LW were terrible as the authors admit, if anything the LW was not prepared at all for this mission the only guys that got it half right were the German crews operating Ju 88G-1 and G-6's and when they were shot down the Kommandeurs of the S/E in some cases got lost, and you are incorrect to assume that most LW records are lost, they are covered quite well in the Prien and privately published books on the units such as JG 4 and 26.................it was a disaster

[Soren]

Soren - the LW should have scored very well from mid to late 1943 - but in general did not - because of the orders imposed on rules of engagement with fighters.

Rules ? What rules ?

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Rules ? What rules ?

Avoid the fighters.

Only JG2 and JG26 were within Fighter range of all of the 8th AF, 9th AF and RAF for inbound bombers. LuftFlotte Reich was built up at the outer ring of P-47 range and attacked the bombers with bot s/e & t/e day fighters and t/e night fighters as the escorts turned back.

Goering expressly 'forbade' the LW to go after the fighters - effectively neutering an aggressive LW when the USAAF fighter pilots were new and inexperienced.

In my opinion it was a very stupid decision - many of the those same LW pilots that didn't get much initial combat experience as replacements versus USAAF or RAF fighters were later crucified when the Mustangs went all the way.

[Erich]

Bill

do not forget JG's 1 and 11, the four were the upper crust of the Reich defense in 1943

[Soren]

Bill,

You mean avoid the fighters and concentrate on the bombers I would presume ? This I am well aware of, and it hurt the LW esp. in the beginning of 44, while in the end it didn't matter as much as they had to go right after their attack because of fuel shortages.

However there was good merit to the decision as knocking down a bomber was a far more costly loss to the Allies than a fighter, and it also meant one less large load of bombs dropped on German cities & production plants.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

Bill

do not forget JG's 1 and 11, the four were the upper crust of the Reich defense in 1943

I didn't forget them E - But I recall they were based inside Germany on the NW and W shoulder of Germany as part of Luftflotte Reich

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Bill,

You mean avoid the fighters and concentrate on the bombers I would presume ? This I am well aware of, and it hurt the LW esp. in the beginning of 44, while in the end it didn't matter as much as they had to go right after their attack because of fuel shortages.

However there was good merit to the decision as knocking down a bomber was a far more costly loss to the Allies than a fighter, and it also meant one less large load of bombs dropped on German cities & production plants.

Bombers after January were important but also as 'bait'. The LW lost the initiative, then control by not being aggressive about control of the airspace.

The outcome would not have been much different, but they lost control of the air sooner in my opinion.

[Erich]

Bill

yes but parts of JG 11 were based out of Denmark like at Husum, a member, really a friend of a friend of the family served in JG 11 and shot down 10 US heavies, he followed of all things a Fort on it's way back over the north Sea in July of 43 and was shot down

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

Bill

yes but parts of JG 11 were based out of Denmark like at Husum, a member, really a friend of a friend of the family served in JG 11 and shot down 10 US heavies, he followed of all things a Fort on it's way back over the north Sea in July of 43 and was shot down

Erich - which units were still at Husum in April, 1945? Dad got all of his ground scores there on April 13, including a 190D that had just landed (not very sporting)..but he didn't shoot the pilot who was last seen diving into a ditch.

Hopefully he made it through the next couple of weeks.

Roger on the distinction, as Husum and Schleswig are definitey not Germany..

[davparlr]

There is a new show on Sunday nights called "Showdown: Air Combat". It is similar but uses real aircraft to illustrate technical features and computer graphics. I suspect the real aircraft are from Chino. Next Sunday is F4F vs. Zero over Guadalcanal.

The techinical stuff is pretty interesting, sitting in the cockpit of the aircrafts, showing how the guns are cocked on the Zero, etc.

[Erich]

Bill

I am going to have to dig for that, many of the LW gruppen were being stationed far north even into Denmark and surrendering even in Norway by wars end.

E ~

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

Bill

I am going to have to dig for that, many of the LW gruppen were being stationed far north even into Denmark and surrendering even in Norway by wars end.

E ~

You have higher priorities.. when you stumble on it let me know but don't waste cycles

BTW I got a complete list of the aircraft and pilots and units from Joerg on April 24 plus a German translation of the battle from one of the sources he uses.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by davparlr

There is a new show on Sunday nights called "Showdown: Air Combat". It is similar but uses real aircraft to illustrate technical features and computer graphics. I suspect the real aircraft are from Chino. Next Sunday is F4F vs. Zero over Guadalcanal.

The techinical stuff is pretty interesting, sitting in the cockpit of the aircrafts, showing how the guns are cocked on the Zero, etc.

Does anyone know if it is done by a produced or filmed by Japanese . The show sure has a crappy selection of the top 10 aces 6 american

[JugBR]

i would like to see some stuff from the russian front too, and some specifc programs about the luftwaffe aces. dogfights and HC are fine, but a bit nationalist sometimes...