Dog fights on the History channel

[Soren]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Bombers after January were important but also as 'bait'. The LW lost the initiative, then control by not being aggressive about control of the airspace.

The outcome would not have been much different, but they lost control of the air sooner in my opinion.

Hmmm.. perhaps, IMO it might actually have shortened it a little.

If German was to have any hope of winning or atleast stalling the entire war from June 44 it would require that Hitler allowed the Me-262's the role of fighter interceptors for which they were designed and built. Furthermore production of Me-262's should've been prioritized, as should work on jet engines.

Hitler also wasted a huge amount of money on projects which were completely ridiculous, one of them being the MAUS. The money spend on this project alone could've, if directed towards the development of jet engines, meant Jumo 004D equipped Me-262's mid 44. If that had happened the Allied bombers couldn't feel safe from the very moment they took off from England.

[JugBR]

Originally Posted by Soren

Hitler also wasted a huge amount of money on projects which were completely ridiculous

I believe that his most ridiculous project was the invasion of russia, the guy wanted to be greater than napoleon, eventually falling in the same hole !

[Soren]

Invading Russia was by no means a ridiculous decision, however declaring war on the US before having even half completed his quests in the east was a VERY big mistake, and what undoubtedly cost him the war.

[JugBR]

Originally Posted by Soren

Invading Russia was by no means a ridiculous decision, however declaring war on the US before having even half completed his quests in the east was a VERY big mistake, and what undoubtedly cost him the war.

i belive after invaded russia, declaring war against usa was redundant lollll

hitler put almost all of his chips on these front, i believe afrika korps should have only thwo divisions or something like that. the great effort was to reach moscow quick as possible.

freaky hitler, was in paris but didnt learned nothing with napoleon. fall in the same old russian trick, the "wasted lands" tatics. isnt that true ?

the invasion of normandy opens a new front, liberates the western countries wich was a great deal, because otherwise they could be part of soviet conquests, like poland, the balkans and east germany. stalinism, gulags, repression, etc...

thanx god he declared war against usa lollll

[Soren]

No JugBR, the Soviet Union would've fallen had the US not stepped in, there's no doubt about it. The western front took up much needed material and manpower.

As for the tactic you're talking about, it is called the 'scorched earth' tactic, and it did work to some extend but it wasn't this which hurt the Germans the most, that was the harsh winter they had to endure without winterclothes (Again a stupid decision by Hitler to withhold much needed winterclothes and send ammo instead), and the shortage of antifreeze which meant the fuel in their tanks froze up. Furthermore the deprivation of manpower & material to the west was equally hurtful.

[JugBR]

yes, in portuguese is called "terra devastada" so i translated it to english.

how damaged was the luftwaffe and the wehrmarch after russia failure ?

[Soren]

Failure ?

The Russian VVS was litterally being slaughtered in air right untill the end of WW2, the reason being that they were flying at low alt, in inferior a/c and against the most experienced German pilots in the LW. It wasn't the eastern front which proved esp. challenging for the LW (despite the bad weather ofcourse) it was the west during 1944 where they had to go up high to both fight off hundreds of bombers and then have to deal with escorting fighters as-well that they were having a really hard time.

[JugBR]

yeah thats true soren, the score of the best german pilots always is something like 200 rusians + 20 american/english. the germans are the pilots with largest number of kills, mostly of those kills was russian planes !

but russians have a large number of german kills also, piloting migs and yaks, mostly airacobras. btw the airacobra is a true legend for the russians.

should be the weather conditions of russian front also a barrier for the luftwaffe ?

if you dont mind to translate some brazilian portuguese thats a nice site about luftwaffe, i think you should like to see:

Ases

[Haztoys]

Originally Posted by Soren

No JugBR, the Soviet Union would've fallen had the US not stepped in, there's no doubt about it. The western front took up much needed material and manpower.

I think your wrong on this ...They would of come back in time ..They would of moved east as they did ..Got all there ducks in a row..And came back...The German were way to spread out ..The Germans did not have anuff men or weapons and never should have tried to take the amount of land they tried to take ..One of the tactics of the Russians is to fall back into the next line of troops and get the enemy strung out ... They have so much land they can afford to loose it ...I two front war is a no no for a small country like Germany.. Countrys like the US and Russia can do it ..More man power and weapons ..To start a war with no natural resources and think you can raid the countrys you take over is a bad move ...It did not work with the Japanese or Germans..

Don't kid your self Soren ..The Russians drug them east until the Germans ran out of steam ...There's no way in hell the Germans would of beat the Russians .. Maybe the Germans would of won some land short time ...But not won the war agains the Russians ..After the Germans ez run of western Europe ..They were thinking that no one could stop them.. And why would they ..But were fools to think no one would ever stop them ..

[Soren]

The only one kidding oneself here is you Hazytoys. You're totally disregarding the amount of men & material assigned to fighting the western allies and ho far the Germans actually came even without it. The mere addition of winterclothes would've secured Stalingrad, preventing some 300,000 men dying of cold.

The USSR would've fallen had it not been for the huge amount of men & material needed on the western front, there's no doubt about it.

As noted had the German troops in Stalingrad merely had winterclothes then the city would've fallen, from which point on the German would have a strong foothold in the USSR from which to combat the remaining Soviet forces. And with the taking of Stalingrad the caucasus region was soon to follow, fueling the German army for the rest of the way through the USSR.

Stalin knew this, hence him being only a day away from negotiating truce terms with Hitler, being sure he would soon lose the city and the war with it.

The Germans did not have anuff men or weapons and never should have tried to take the amount of land they tried to take

Because of the western front.

[Haztoys]

Originally Posted by Soren

The only one kidding oneself here is you Hazytoys. You're totally disregarding the amount of men & material assigned to fighting the western allies and ho far the Germans actually came even without it. The mere addition of winterclothes would've secured Stalingrad, preventing some 300,000 men dying of cold.

The USSR would've fallen had it not been for the huge amount of men & material needed on the western front, there's no doubt about it.

As noted had the German troops in Stalingrad merely had winterclothes then the city would've fallen, from which point on the German would have a strong foothold in the USSR from which to combat the remaining Soviet forces. And with the taking of Stalingrad the caucasus region was soon to follow, fueling the German army for the rest of the way through the USSR.

Stalin knew this, hence him being only a day away from negotiating truce terms with Hitler, being sure he would soon lose the city and the war with it.



Because of the western front.

Its one thing to sucker punch someone ...And its something else for the other guy to see it coming.. So he can defend him self..

Mother Russia has all the tools to win a war .. She would of negotiated a truce then geared up and push the Germans back to Germany..Taking over a country never works out ..Don't kid your self ..In the end the Germans would of lost ..They did not have the man power to do what they did ..Winter cloth or not .. They could of won ether the west front or the east ..But not both..

Luck sucker punch ..Is how I see it.. They did that a time or three in Europe two.. Not putting the Germans fighting machine down at all..They were the best in the world at the time .. But Soren's your the one kiding your self thinking they had the man power to keep what the took..

As the US is finding out .. They may have won some land for a time .. The Russians did not need help..The help shorten the war sure.. The Germans would of lost in the end ..

And Sorens.. Why did the german higher ups not get the cloths to the troops ..Offten wondered about that..I know there ago was that this was going to take six months ..But at some point they could see that a change in plans needed to be done...???

[JugBR]

besides that discussion, i believe both you guys should agree with me, that battles like kursk and staligrade was ones of the main battles of the war. and germany starts to fall in russia, berore the d-day.

[Haztoys]

Originally Posted by JugBR

besides that discussion, i believe both you guys should agree with me, that battles like kursk and staligrade was ones of the main battles of the war. and germany starts to fall in russia, berore the d-day.

Yes they were ..Are that point the Russians were all geared up and ready to go...Not sitting on there back side thinking the Germans would not attack..I "think" Stalins pack with Germany was so he could have time to clean out his own house

And "I" feel if the Germans would of just whated untill the Allied attacked on D-Day ..And used all there troops at D-Day ..the Allies would of never gottin off the beach...And the Allies would of gave up and a truce would of come ...I think alot of people do not understand ..D-Day for the Allies realy did not go as planned.. The Germans had the Allies covered..Just not anuff cover to go around..

Then maybe the eastern front would of been a whole new game ...

Hows it go "Clean up one mess before you start another"

[Soren]

Hazytoys I relly don't get your posts as you're basically saying two things at once.

What I'm saying is that hadn't it been for the western front depriving the Germans of much needed manpower & material then they would've taken the USSR.

What exactly is your position ?

[Udet]

Soren his position is rather simple: the guy is one of those lifeforms chanting the same allied Disneylandic mantra suggesting that if had not been because of USA involvement in the ETO, the bolshevik army would have "steam-rolled" its way deep into Western Europe, reaching the Channel -one of the several allied "turn ons" here-. Does not surprise me that these wimps feel hot and mean to suggest the bolsheviks could have reached Lisbon. It makes one wonder that USA absent, could the reds have occupied the Azores and the Canarias?

These people live in a ridiculous land of fantasy. The fact they keep repeating the same crap over and over again will not turn their mantras into reality. They dream with the fact that either way, sooner or later, the reds win.

At some moment of the war, the bolshevik nation had one foot suspended over the abyss. No USA in the ETO, no bolshevik victory. Simple.