Dogfight show

[AL Schlageter]

YouTube - Dogfights: No room for error: Art Friedler - Part 1 of 2

In this clip it has the Fw190s flying an 8x8 formation. Is this historically correct?

Art Friedler said there was 8 groups of 8 planes.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by AL Schlageter

YouTube - Dogfights: No room for error: Art Friedler - Part 1 of 2

In this clip it has the Fw190s flying an 8x8 formation. Is this historically correct?

Art Friedler said there was 8 groups of 8 planes.

Al, I have encounter reports - such as 5 December, 1944 involving 355th FG which show formations similar in both geometry and size. I have see others describing 'seven rows of six' or gaggles of 50+ which could be the same attempted formation less well organized.

In conversations with various LW pilots I understand this was for two purposes - one, to concentrate newer pilots and two, provide devastating firepower in small volume.

I am not aware of such formations encountred by 8th AF until perhaps July timeframe.

The a/c most described are either Fw 190s or me 410s. That doesn't mean they didn't fly 109s in that formation (as described in recent encounter w/Bryan of 352nd) I just had'nt seen them in the encounter reports I have read. Having said that I will dig some more.

Erich will have a lot more on this subject than me

Regards,

Bill

[Thorlifter]

That was a great story from Art Friedler. I didn't see the beginning of that one, but I saw it from the time he started talking about the Me-109 encounter. Thank goodness for youtube.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

That was a good episode!

[Erich]

if this is the July encounter of 109's and Fw 190Sturms of JG 300 in July of 44 then this is quite incorrect. I have talked with Art fully about that mission when he scored both a 109 and a heavy SturmFw from the LW JG. sorry but does it say on youtube the date ? my pc is not picking it up right now. i set Art styragiht on several of his missions as this is what he wanted from me and that being the LW side of things to go with his personal encounter reports. Bill of course knows quite well a report of the US pilots and what really happened sometimes are quite confused when only seconds pass by at high altitude

[AL Schlageter]

Hi Erich.

The date is July 26 1944 over Gratz Austria. He says the time is in the early morning (8:45AM but could be take off time).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force):
In Hungary, 366 B-17s and B-24s bomb an armament works at Budapest; 24 other B-24s attack Pecs marshalling yards; P-38s and P-51s escort the Budapest mission.
USAAF Chronology:

[Erich]

that is the one . I sent Art two full pages of notes, his fg shot up 9 Fw's but not before at least 11 B-17's were lost as well as ? B-24's.

the Fw's are protrayed wrong from what I hear in the video-history channel, as riding in straight line up formation back to back. that is quite incorrect as it would of been up to 3 staffels of 15 a/c in a wedge formation and then as they got closer from the rear to the bombers a definate V shape with the Staffel leader being point man, this may break up into several waves but not usually the 10 to 15 a/c wedge, running though the bomber pulk then up or down sliding off right or left to hopeful regroup and try the tactic again, but Art and his buddies were there to catch them

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

that is the one . I sent Art two full pages of notes, his fg shot up 9 Fw's but not before at least 11 B-17's were lost as well as ? B-24's.

the Fw's are protrayed wrong from what I hear in the video-history channel, as riding in straight line up formation back to back. that is quite incorrect as it would of been up to 3 staffels of 15 a/c in a wedge formation and then as they got closer from the rear to the bombers a definate V shape with the Staffel leader being point man, this may break up into several waves but not usually the 10 to 15 a/c wedge, running though the bomber pulk then up or down sliding off right or left to hopeful regroup and try the tactic again, but Art and his buddies were there to catch them

I suspect Erich is right about the desired formation..

I have attached two examples of descriptions by 355FG pilots on what they thought they saw. God knows what they were actually trying to do. The Minchew encounter does speak to both a coordinated formation of Me 410s and well disciplined. Hovde's Fw 190s appeared to be an attemt at straight wave, several deep.

I suspect Hovde and the 358FS caught these 50 Fw 190s and 109s as they were in process of roming up.

I may have some of the other July 7 reports handy that even describe the 410s leaving the scene in a shallow dive in more or less perfect formation. You can tll thre were inexperienced pilots in these gaagles as very little evasive action was taken.

[Erich]

Bill I'll have to look again towards the data of the LW to see who the 355th fg jumped, we probably talked of whom already but not the info on the top of my head.

be back later, December 5th was a very bad day for the LW and please more on the 7th of July, thanks for the private days ago on this mission Bill ...........

E ~