Dresden

[Erich]

dang I knew right off where this thread was going to turn just like the countless threads on other forums on Dresden...............nowhere. Irving is a stooge and should not be even read let alone consulted as an experten on the matter. I have dear freinds who retreated though this **** the day/night of the action, and I am lothe to say more except in reality the death is around 100,000 refugess and retreateing German military. The rail crossings were basically bombed out of commission, getting back in 3 days is crock as it just didn;t happen, the streets were plugged terribly and getting out of that firestorm was bad enough just running for your lives during the night during shellings, bombings and then in the day your prayed you would not get strafed by US fighters

why do I bother.........

[Hunter368]

Agreed Erich,

How long has it been since our last Dresden chat??? 3-6 months or so.

Very heated as always, but achieving nothing. One of those sad stories from war.

[Parmigiano]

1 - That the dead were 25, 35 or 50.000 is of relative importance. The important thing is that those deaths were useless for the war effort.

Anyway, think about what happened with the recent Tsunami or (to a minor scale) with Kathrina in an incomparably more controlled environment: the real number of casualties was extremenly difficult to calculate, and it took months.
Now imagine the situation in Dresden in 1945, and figure out how it was:how many unregistered refugees escaped the official count?

2 - That in the destruction of the City the central station was damaged is only normal. Point is that the block of 3 days of railroad traffic could have been achieved with 6 Mosquito bombing the station.
The hypocrisy is to claim that Dresden operation was aimed to military targets

This is taken from this site 'http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden.htm'
I don't know if the site is neutral or a neo-nazi thing, but the references are declared and could be verified

" 12) David Pedlow, letter to The Guardian (14th February, 2004)

My father was one of the "anonymous RAF meteorological officers (who) finally sealed Dresden's fate". A chronically short-sighted school teacher, he went into the Meteorological Office at the beginning of a war that he had hoped would not happen, but that he felt was utterly necessary. He knew he would be part of a process that sent young men out to risk their lives, and that inevitably - given the inadequacies of bomb-aiming and weather-forecasting techniques - would lead to a considerable number of civilian casualties.

The Dresden briefing was only one of many that he routinely attended, and even before the crews left the ground he was troubled because of one notable omission from the routine.

Normally, crews were given a strategic aiming point - anything from a major factory in the middle of nowhere to a small but significant railway junction within a built-up area. The smaller the aiming point and the heavier the concentration of housing around it, the greater would be the civilian casualties - but given that the strike was at a strategic aiming point those casualties could be justified.

Only at the Dresden briefing, my father told me, were the crews given no strategic aiming point. They were simply told that anywhere within the built-up area of the city would serve.

He felt that Dresden and its civilian population had been the prime target of the raid and that its destruction and their deaths served no strategic purpose, even in the widest terms; that this was a significant departure from accepting civilian deaths as a regrettable but inevitable consequence of the bomber war; and that he had been complicit in what was, at best, a very dubious operation"

[johnbr]

I no the man that I you to work with was a fireman there.He said that the most of the death's there was no body because they were cremated from the heat.He said they would open a bomb shelter that they new there were people and all they found was ash's. Even the road's were burning.

[plan_D]

Boo-Hoo. The Germans bombed London without a strategic aim except to bring the British civil population to it's knees and beg for mercy.

[Parmigiano]

C'mon Plan_D, you have too much culture for not knowing that the first bombing on London happened only on Sept. 7 1940, as 'revenge' to the RAF bombing on Berlin that started on 25/26 August 1940 (I recall that Berlin was bombed 6/7 times before Sept. 7)

And that more than an analyst believe that this was a smart strategic plan of the UK to lure the germans in diverting their effort to London instead of the industry.

And you are too smart to really believe that this 1940 'non strategic' bombings can be compared to the Feb 1945 episode...

[Hop]

The Germans first bombed London in mid August. They did so on many occasions before the 7th September. The only difference on 7th September was the scale, and the switch to area attacks.

From The Battle by Richard Overy:

"The claim that the attack on London was retaliation for starting an air war against civilians with the raid on Berlin on the night of 25/26 August is equally hollow. The Berlin raid was very small-scale, and the amount of damage inflicted on the capital itself negligible. The psychological impact was much greater on a population lulled into complacency by months of propaganda on the invulnerability of the city. 'The Berliners are stunned,' wrote William Shirer in his diary, 'from all reports there was a pell-mell, frightened rush to the cellars.. ,' On 29 August British bombers returned, this time killing ten Berliners (including four men and two women watching the pyrotechnic battle from a doorway). Goebbels made the most of a golden opportunity. 'Berlin is now in the theatre of war,' he confided to his diary. 'It is good that this is so.' The Berlin papers played up the air terror and the genocidal intention ' "to massacre the population of Berlin".

The raids on Berlin were in reality retaliation for the persistent bombing of British conurbations and the high level of British civilian casualties that resulted. In July 258 civilians had been killed, in August 1,075; the figures included 136 children and 392 women. During the last half of August, as German bombers moved progressively further inland, bombs began to fall on the outskirts of London. On the night of 18/19 August bombs fell on Croydon, Wimbledon and the Maidens. On the night of 22/23 August the first bombs fell on central London in attacks described by observers as 'extensive' and for which no warning was given; on the night of 24/25 August bombs fell in Slough, Richmond Park and Dulwich. On the night the RAF first raided Berlin, bombs fell on Banstead, Croydon, Lewisham, Uxbridge, Harrow and Hayes. On the night of the next raid on Berlin, on 28/29 August, German aircraft bombed the following London areas: Finchley, St Pancras, Wembley, Wood Green, Southgate, Crayford, Old Kent Road, Mill Hill, Ilford, Hendon, Chigwell. London was under 'red' warning for seven hours and five minutes. The bombing of London began almost two weeks before Hitler's speech on 4 September, and well before the first raid on Berlin."

Look at that figure for British civilians killed. 258 in July, 1,075 in August.

The RAF had killed about 1,000 German civilians in total by the end of 1940.

[Parmigiano]

That's interesting, Hop.

My historical sources (University of Milan among them) definitely reported Sept 6 as first bombing of London, no mention of earlier attacks.
You'll never stop to learn about 'what really happened' in history...

Anyway, the Dresden episode still cannot be justified in comparison to the 1940 raids on London or Berlin.

[Hunter368]

I see this one getting heated.

[Parmigiano]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

I see this one getting heated.

No Hunter, we are cool guys and don't overheat for a discussion.

Beside, I have only one more day of fuel, because tomorrow is the last day that I am almost alone at office, starting Monday the normal routine will kick in and i'll have no more time for hobbys!

[Hop]

My historical sources (University of Milan among them) definitely reported Sept 6 as first bombing of London, no mention of earlier attacks.

I suspect they are talking about the first area bombing of London, which took place on the 7th September.

But it's wrong to compare that to the first RAF attacks on Berlin, which were nothing like area attacks.

The first bombs to fall on London during WW2 were on the 15th August when the Luftwaffe attacked Croydon airfield in the afternoon, killing 60 civilians in surrounding areas. (Croydon is a suburb of London). As Overy states, bombs fell repeatedly on London as the Luftwaffe sought to bomb military targets in and around the city. After several days, the RAF retaliated. But the RAF also attempted to hit military targets in and around Berlin.

So the pattern was - Luftwaffe bomb military targets, cause collateral damage in London - RAF then bomb military targets, cause collateral damage in Berlin. That remained the case until early September (although the Luftwaffe were doing much more bombing, and causing much more collateral damage), when the Luftwaffe began area bombing British cities in an attempt to break civilian morale.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by Parmigiano

No Hunter, we are cool guys and don't overheat for a discussion.

Beside, I have only one more day of fuel, because tomorrow is the last day that I am almost alone at office, starting Monday the normal routine will kick in and i'll have no more time for hobbys!

You are not the person that I think is going to heat things up in here. Just wait and see....who knows maybe I am wrong. maybe......

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I believe the first bombs to fall on London were accidental when several He-111s on Aug 24, 1941 got lost and strayed over the city.

From my understanding no other bombs were dropped on London until Sept 7.

Could be wrong though on my info, that has just allways been my knowledge on the subject.

The British Raid on Berlin consisted of approx. 100 bombers.

Either way I do not justify bombing of civilian centers of population by any side Allied or Axis accept for the Atomic bombings of Japan which in my opinion saved lives by ending the war.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

yes i believe the He-111s bombed london by accident, but obviously the RAF didn't realise it was an accident, and the LW didn't know they'd bombed london, which is why they were outraged when the RAF carried out a raid on Berlin in responce, the LW, thinking this was unprovoked, then carried out further bombings of london...............

[bomber]

I think the cold reality is that wars aren't fought to the Queensbury rules... gouging, punching the kidneys, biting the ears and rabbit punching are not banned.

We all like to think that in a war (having not been in one) we'd remain civilised to the end... but is that realistic when what is used to sustain us through the dark times and spur us on for one last push is hate and revenge...

Germany having the World Cup in their ocuntry and doing such a fine job of it should be a lesson to us all.... don't forget, but let it go.....

Simon