Effect of operational Fw187s during the Battle of Britain

[wiking85]

How much effect would three Geschwader of Fw187 single seater fighters with DB601 engines have had on the Battle of Britain?
Let's assume these are built instead of the Bf110.
For the sake of argument, let's assume that top speed of the aircraft is over 410mph (the historical two seater version, 500kg heavier than the single seater version, had 700hp engines and 325mph, while in 1940 there would be two 1200hp engines, a total of 1000hp more than the 1937 version) and has about 1000 miles range, which the single seat version in 1937 had.

 

[davebender]

If full strength that would be about 300 aircraft and Fw-187 has superior aerial performance.

Not enough for Germany to win as 1940 RAF still have more fighter sorties over England then Luftwaffe. However three Fw-187 Geschwader would certainly make life more difficult for the RAF.

built instead of the Bf110.

What is substituting for Me-110 night fighter?

 

[wiking85]

If full strength that would be about 300 aircraft and Fw-187 has superior aerial performance.

Not enough for Germany to win as 1940 RAF still have more fighter sorties over England then Luftwaffe. However three Fw-187 Geschwader would certainly make life more difficult for the RAF.

Can you quantify the effect? I realize the Fw187 wouldn't have the ability to dogfight because of its size, but its very high speed would allow it to boom-and-zoom better than anyone else. This would give them the ability to threaten the Spitfire, though the Spit rolled faster than anything the Germans had at that time, so if it realized it was under threat would peel off. I'm not sure how well it would stop the Spitfires from doing their job, because they could turn away from the Fw187 and focus on other targets while the Fw187 lined up for another pass, which could take minutes.

What is substituting for Me-110 night fighter?

Ju88C heavy fighter

 

[davebender]

Are they ILO an equal number of Ju-88A bombers or have you increased Ju-88 airframe production? I'm not trying to nitpick but you are making major changes to German aircraft production.

1940 production (per Wikipedia).
1,081 x Me-110.
.....1,006 x fighter aircraft. Includes night fighters.
.....75 x recon aircraft.
2,208 x Ju-88.
.....1,816 bombers.
.....62 x fighter. Presumably night fighter aircraft.
.....330 x recon aircraft.
.....260 x Do-17 bomber.

My suggestion.
Do-17 was marginal as a bomber due to small range / payload. However Do-215 (i.e. Do-17 with DB601 engines) was an effective night fighter aircraft during 1940 and 1941. Transfer the entire Do-17 production to the newly created night fighter force. Do-17 / Do-215 development would continue as a night fighter aircraft.

Build Fw-187 recon variant to assume recon mission from both Me-110 and Ju-88.

Build Fw-187 fighter variant to maintain three bomber escort Geschwader at full strength.

Entire Ju-88 production will go to bomber units.

Me-110 doesn't enter mass production. However Me-110 / Bf-162 still serves as starting point for Me-210 light bomber project.

 

[stona]

Small detail but Bf 110 surely.
I have a few original Messeschmitt documents and the aircraft is invariably referred to as Bf 110.
This one is nearest to the period being discussed.

Cheers
Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

Aircraft produced by Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG through 1938 are designated by the prefix "Bf" (i.e.: Bf108) and continued to retain that designation, anything after 1938 were designated "Me" for Messerschmitt AG (i.e.: Me210, Me262, etc.) for the duration of the war.

 

[stona]

Aircraft produced by Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG through 1938 are designated by the prefix "Bf" (i.e.: Bf108) and continued to retain that designation, anything after 1938 were designated "Me" for Messerschmitt AG (i.e.: Me210, Me262, etc.) for the duration of the war.

Exactly. Some might consider it to be nit picking but the correct nomenclature is important so that everyone knows what is being discussed.

Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

I agree...some might see it as being a too technical, but it helps to be aware of details like that

 

[Vincenzo]

AFAIK not 88 or 110 nightfighter were product in '40 (talking of series production idk for prototypes)

 

[stona]

Ob.d.L. strength report of 14 September 1940 includes 41 Bf 110 C and D described as nightfighters.

The minutes of a meeting of 26th October 1940 state that the General Staff want to maintain an inventory of 120 Bf 110 night fighters. This means that the entire production with the exception of Messerschmitt's DB 601 N powered zerstorer output is to be used in the night fighter role.

At the start of Barbarossa in June '41 only the now renamed schnellkamfgeschwader 210 and II./ZG 26 are involved flying Bf 110s. All the rest are either in Africa or being used as night fighters.

Cheers

Steve

 

[fastmongrel]

Would a Fw187 have 1200 hp engines in Aug 40. I thought the Bf109s only had 1100 hp engines at that time.

If the LW can have 300 operational Fw187s can the RAF have a wing or 2 of MkII Whirlwinds with 1,000 hp Merlins

 

[Vincenzo]

AFAIK first 110 nightfighter was F-4. Was common use day fighter as night fighter early in the war

 

[Glider]

Just for fun why not give the Whirlwind to the RAF replacing the Bleniem fighters. After all they were in production and had started to be issued to the fighter squadrons.

 

[wiking85]

Would a Fw187 have 1200 hp engines in Aug 40. I thought the Bf109s only had 1100 hp engines at that time.

If the LW can have 300 operational Fw187s can the RAF have a wing or 2 of MkII Whirlwinds with 1,000 hp Merlins

They would only have the Whirlwinds if the Germans developed a four engine heavy bomber, as twin engine fighters were generally bomber killers.
The Bf110 was fielding the DB601Ps about August, which was 1200hp. So yeah, without the Bf110 here, then the Fw187 would get them.

Edit:
The Bf110E was entering production in August, which is when the 601P showed up in numbers. So yeah, you'd be right that the 1100hp engines would be the bulk of those fielded by the Fw187 at that time. Still that should push the Fw187 single seater over 400mph top speed.

Just for fun why not give the Whirlwind to the RAF replacing the Bleniem fighters. After all they were in production and had started to be issued to the fighter squadrons.

That would be a separate POD, so outside the scope of this thread. The Whirlwind didn't really get introduced because of its engine problems; you'd need a POD to create a need for a heavy fighter like that AND fix the engines.

 

[wiking85]

Are they ILO an equal number of Ju-88A bombers or have you increased Ju-88 airframe production? I'm not trying to nitpick but you are making major changes to German aircraft production.

1940 production (per Wikipedia).
1,081 x Me-110.
.....1,006 x fighter aircraft. Includes night fighters.
.....75 x recon aircraft.
2,208 x Ju-88.
.....1,816 bombers.
.....62 x fighter. Presumably night fighter aircraft.
.....330 x recon aircraft.
.....260 x Do-17 bomber.

My suggestion.
Do-17 was marginal as a bomber due to small range / payload. However Do-215 (i.e. Do-17 with DB601 engines) was an effective night fighter aircraft during 1940 and 1941. Transfer the entire Do-17 production to the newly created night fighter force. Do-17 / Do-215 development would continue as a night fighter aircraft.

Build Fw-187 recon variant to assume recon mission from both Me-110 and Ju-88.

Build Fw-187 fighter variant to maintain three bomber escort Geschwader at full strength.

Entire Ju-88 production will go to bomber units.

Me-110 doesn't enter mass production. However Me-110 / Bf-162 still serves as starting point for Me-210 light bomber project.

Bump up the Ju88 production by limiting the Fw187 production AND eliminate the Do17 and Do217. The Ju88C was plenty good as a night fighter in 1940. When it started taking the radar equipment it performed just as well as the Bf110 and in fact had a longer life than the Bf110. I'd say the Me210/410 is completely unnecessary and in fact detrimental because the Ju88 already could operate as a fighter bomber and heavy fighter in all the same roles. Much better just to expand Ju88 production and enjoy the benefits of economies of scale.

 

[Glider]

That would be a separate POD, so outside the scope of this thread. The Whirlwind didn't really get introduced because of its engine problems; you'd need a POD to create a need for a heavy fighter like that AND fix the engines.

A couple of points, the Whirlwind didn't have any problems with the engines common mistake. The second being that they just missed the BOB.

I like the idea that the RAF cannot have the Whirlwind which they so nearly did have and the Luftwaffe can have the FW187 with two engines which they definately didn't have.

If you adjust one side (Any side) and don't change the other then clearly one is going to have a problem.

 

[wiking85]

A couple of points, the Whirlwind didn't have any problems with the engines common mistake. The second being that they just missed the BOB.

I like the idea that the RAF cannot have the Whirlwind which they so nearly did have and the Luftwaffe can have the FW187 with two engines which they definately didn't have.

If you adjust one side (Any side) and don't change the other then clearly one is going to have a problem.

They why didn't they have the Whirlwind?

Westland Whirlwind (fighter) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was instead decided that the first Whirlwind squadron would be 263 Squadron, which was reforming at Grangemouth, Scotland after disastrous losses in the Norwegian Campaign. The first production Whirlwind was delivered to No. 263 Squadron by its commander, Squadron Leader H. Eeles[nb 1] on 6 July.[12] Deliveries were slow, with only five on strength with 263 Squadron on 17 August 1940, with none serviceable.[13] (The squadron supplemented its strength with Hawker Hurricanes to allow the Squadron's pilots to fly in the meantime.[11]) Despite the Battle of Britain and the consequent urgent need for fighters, 263 Squadron remained in Scotland - Air Chief Marshall Hugh Dowding, in charge of RAF Fighter Command, stated on 17 October that 263 could not be deployed to the south because "there was no room for 'passengers' in that part of the world".[10]

You might get a handful operational by October.

Edit:
also looking at the stats, I don't think it is any better than the Spitfire, just with heavier firepower:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Whirlwind_(fighter)#Specifications_.28Whirlwind.29

General characteristics

Crew: One pilot
Length: 32 ft 3 in (9.83 m)
Wingspan: 45 ft 0 in (13.72 m)
Height: 11 ft 0 in (3.35 m)
Wing area: 250 ft² (23.2 m²)
Airfoil: NACA 23017-08
Empty weight: 8,310 lb (3,777 kg)
Loaded weight: 10,356 lb (4,707 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 11,445 lb (5,202 kg)
Powerplant: 2 × Rolls-Royce Peregrine I liquid-cooled V12 engine, 885 hp (660 kW) at 10,000 ft (3,050 m) with 100 octane fuel each
Propellers: de Havilland constant speed propeller
Propeller diameter: 10 ft (3.28 m)
Performance

Maximum speed: 360 mph (313 knots, 580 km/h) at 15,000 ft (4,570 m)
Stall speed: 95 mph (83 knots, 153 km/h) (flaps down)
Range: 800 mi[34] (696 nmi, 1,288 km)
Combat radius: 150 mi (130 nmi, 240 km) (low altitude fighter, with normal reserves)[16]
Service ceiling: 30,300 ft (9,240 m)
Armament

Guns: 4x Hispano 20 mm cannons with 60 rounds per gun
Bombs: 2x 250 lb (115 kg) or 500 lb (230 kg) bombs
[edit]

 

[Aozora]

They would only have the Whirlwinds if the Germans developed a four engine heavy bomber, as twin engine fighters were generally bomber killers.
The Bf110 was fielding the DB601Ps about August, which was 1200hp. So yeah, without the Bf110 here, then the Fw187 would get them.

Edit:
The Bf110E was entering production in August, which is when the 601P showed up in numbers. So yeah, you'd be right that the 1100hp engines would be the bulk of those fielded by the Fw187 at that time. Still that should push the Fw187 single seater over 400mph top speed.


That would be a separate POD, so outside the scope of this thread. The Whirlwind didn't really get introduced because of its engine problems; you'd need a POD to create a need for a heavy fighter like that AND fix the engines.

I'm assuming by DB 601P you're talking about the DB 601N?

 

[davebender]

It's not that simple. Factories and component suppliers must be retooled for the new aircraft model.

Goering created the night fighter force during 1940 without a lot of warning. Hence there were no factory made night fighter aircraft prior to mid 1941 or so. As an expedient most Me-110 day fighter aircraft plus a few Do-215s and Ju-88s were transfered from existing units.

IMO if we need expedient night fighter aircraft during 1940 then use Do-17s. Bomber units would hardly miss them and Dornier can keep existing production line in operation through 1941. During 1942 Germany can begin production of an aircraft specifically designed for the night fighter role. Design selection would be by flight competition.

Fw-187 mass production cost with DB601 engines was only RM 140,000. Less expensive then Ju-88 and Me-110. Minimizing Fw-187 production would be counter productive to the German war effort. We want to do the opposite. Give Fw-187 the recon role historically performed by more expensive Me-110 and Ju-88 in addition to long range day fighter mission. I would also experiment with a CAS variant that has a 3cm Mk101 or Mk103 cannon under fuselage.

 

[wiking85]

I'm assuming by DB 601P you're talking about the DB 601N?

Daimler-Benz DB 601 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DB601P
Same as DB601N for use in Messerschmitt Bf 110 and/or bomber aircraft (different prop/engine ratio, 1:1.88 instead of 1:1.55)

Maybe the N would work better for the Fw187, but I figure what worked for the Bf110 would translate to the Fw187.