End of WW2 -- second part

plan_D · 07-10-2005, 07:30 PM

How does Germany secure the East without going through Poland?

wmaxt · 07-10-2005, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

How does Germany secure the East without going through Poland?

Then I have to plead Brain Fade

It's been awhile since I've looked closely at a map of Europe and I was thinking Poland was more southerly.

Ok, Poland is a must, does that really change the scenario? If Hitler had gone East without threatening/supplying Britain with an out what would have happened?

In real life the Allies won, why?
1. Hitler was over extended too much to fast.
2. Hitler had run out of resources Oil, Metals of all kinds, Manpower, Food.
3. The Allies won because they pulled together and had Together the resources to over come an over extended Axis.

Britain by itself was not any better manpower resource wise than Germany.

Had Hitler consolidated Russia he would have had all he needed and I don't think All the Americas and Britain could have done it with certainty.

wmaxt

plan_D · 07-10-2005, 07:55 PM

Once Germany moved into Poland - Britain is drawn into the war. Britain itself is no matter than Germany in man power - no but Britain and her Empire are on terms, if not above, the man power of the Soviet Union.

The largest British Army was in the CBI, the 14th Army. If the numbers deployed in the CBI were deployed against Germany, then Germany would have felt it hard.

Under this 'what-if' am I right to assume that the U.S is still supplying Britain with the vital war resources under Lend-Lease? In reality, that's the only way Germany could beat Britain - by cutting off that life line. No direct assault was ever going to work.

The Channel stops Germany ever bringing it's full man power and tactical skill to bare. The Kriegsmarine surface fleet isn't exactly the best in the world and the U-Boat fleet could be tied up pretty quickly with the introduction of light carriers and long range maritime patrol aircraft.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 07-11-2005, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

We had a pact with Poland and we would stick to it - no matter how much Hitler tried to appease us, Britain would not back out of the war unless Germany got out of Poland and stayed within it's borders.

Yes but the Allies as a whole did not really honor there pact with Poland in the fact that they let Germany stand by and take Poland. When Germany attacked Poland they left only 23 2nd Rate Divisions in the West with the Allies having 110 Divisions with which to invade Germany. If the allies had attacked Germany at that time they could have ended the war much sooner.

I do however agree that there was no chance for Germany. The odds were just stacked against them. They had a lunatic in a leader who underestimated his enemy and most of all I would say the lack of recources.

plan_D · 07-11-2005, 03:10 PM

Britain was in no position to invade Germany in September 1939. You must remember that France was practically forced into declaring war on Germany by Britain making it feel guilty.

The Allies as a whole did not invade Germany - but nowhere in the pact did it say "The nations of Britain and France would invade Germany if Germany invaded Poland." but I am sure that if Britain was in a position to do so, she would have done so.

Britain only had 350,000 people on the continent of Europe - it was in no situation to save Poland.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 07-11-2005, 03:38 PM

As a whole the Allies had the forces to do it but they waited and this cost them an early victory in my opinion.

plan_D · 07-11-2005, 03:46 PM

Britain was all for it but Britain could not force France into the offensive - it had already forced her into declaring war on Germany in the first place. All France had to do in the early years was appear in the Rhineland when Germany occupied it and German forces would have gone running back across Rhine - that's what was planned.

It was France if anyone who let Poland down in the early years - Britain were the only nation willing to do something. Unfortunately for Poland - Britain being Britain was in no fit state to go into total war at a moments notice.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 07-11-2005, 04:04 PM

I still disagree. The Allies could have acted quickly and ended it. Gerneral Guderian himself even said that Germany would not have been able to stop the Allies that early.

I do agree though that if the French had acted in the Rheinland and the Allies had stood up about Austria and the Czech the war may have been prevented.

plan_D · 07-11-2005, 04:07 PM

What I am saying is that Britain alone couldn't have stopped Germany, not even in September 1939. France could have stopped Germany on her own in September 1939 - I don't doubt that. I certainly do not doubt that all the Allies could have stopped Germany then. I have read Guderian's memoirs and Von Mellenthin's 'Panzer Battles' which mentioned the "mighty" and "impregnable" West Wall as being nothing more than shoddy built and ill-manned fortifications only made strong by the propaganda surrounding them.

The British could not bait France into acting because France was not willing to bear the full brunt of the action. It cost Europe dearly...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 07-11-2005, 04:13 PM

Why do you keep saying Britain alone? I am talking about the allies as a whole failing in not attacking Germany in 1939.

plan_D · 07-11-2005, 04:15 PM

Because what you quoted was me solely refering to Britain - that was my point in Britain being a proud nation and joining the war out of principal in sticking to that pact with Poland.

France alone could have defeated Germany in September, 1939. Even if not total victory - they could have made Germany pull out of Poland.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 07-11-2005, 04:23 PM

And that is what I am saying, the Allies could have defeated Germany in 1939.

"What we have here is a failure to comunicate! Some men you just cant reach!"

plan_D · 07-11-2005, 04:28 PM

All trouble centers around communication - too much communication.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 07-11-2005, 04:29 PM

Agreed.

wmaxt · 07-11-2005, 05:41 PM

Your right, Adler, the Allies could have stopped it in '39 but the US had their heads where the sun don't shine, the French wern't threatened directly yet, and the Brits didn't have the where with all to do it alone.

If Hitler had kept going East and consolidated his resources before everyone woke up, he might be there still. We got lucky because he is a lunatic!

Anyway thats my thought.

wmaxt