End of WW2 -- second part

[plan_D]

They're certainly not going to be getting anywhere in the political world, that's for sure.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You are correct. I just think it is amazing that there are people that are ignorant eneogh to still do this stuff.

[plan_D]

I know what you're saying. But even after what happened 60 years ago I don't care that these people exist. Y'know, they think how they think, you think how you think. Just be safe in the knowledge, they won't get anywhere.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree with you, dont take me wrong.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Second of all the Japs were a far more effective fighting force then you give them credit. Guadal Canal did not go on for 6 months because the Marines and the Navy wanted it to.

A harbringer of things to come was the vicious fight over New Georgia. Here the Japanese garrison planned to be on the defensive and knew there would be no relief. They used jungle cover to devestaing effect. There were more US footsoldier casualties here in eight weeks of fighting than all of the six months of fighting over Guadalcanal.

Before any offensive action could really begin in the Pacific, the USN had to deploy enough Essex class carriers to smother any Japanese air attacks that might be thrown at them. This was not going to happen untill late 1943. The building of the carriers was already on emergency schedule, so no wishfull thinking was going to alter the fact, that they would not be ready before that time.

In addition, as amply demonstrated by the Japanese army throughout the Pacific war, its easy to move the divisions forward to their operational area, but it was hell keeping them supplied. Even with no fighting, both the allied and Japanese forces whole units lost a lot of combat strength just from the climate and disease. New Guinie was called the "Green Hell" for a reason.

Aemebic dysentary and malaria were rampant. The heat, rain and humidity tore at material with no respite. And the comments from the soldiers of the swarms of jungle insects is almost unprintable.

Untill 1944 when the supply train finally caught up with demands, the numbers of ground units that were forward deployed had to be kept at a rational level. Most of the harbors and anchorages were pitifull compared to Europe. Untill they were developed, there was going to be no full scale offensives in the PTO and CBI. Also think of the ships needed to keep just a division equiped. A ship sailing from San Franscisco needed one full month to get to Australia. Then another month to sail back. The logistics requirements of fighting in the PTO/CBI in 1942/43 were incredible.

Several years ago there was a couple of books that dealt with this, "Touched by fire" and "victory at sea". Both well written and it gives you a peek at the difficulties of fighting in that that area of the war. Something like 2/3rds of all the resources commited to the PTO had to be just in supply. Not the actual weapons of war, but cargo ships, personell, etc. Think of the tonnage needed to keep an eight carrier task force and a one division landing force supplied for one month.

The only scenario I see of an early defeat of Japan was to hit their maritime trade right in the choke point between the Philipines/ Formosa/China. And that would mean the USN solved the torpedo problem very early, and used agressive wolf pack tactics from the onset.

The pacific war was far different from the European war.

(Just my two cents worth)

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It was very different. I think the Japanese were some of the best Jungle warfare soldiers that existed the only problem was that they were overwellmed and I dont think that there superiors were very good at leading the men. There tradition told them to fight to the end. IN many cases whole armies would commit suicide rather than admit defeat and capture. It was very bloody fighting but due to the Japanese way of conducting war there was no way they could win besides the fact that they had to resupply over vast oceans.

[syscom3]

I agree with you about them being great jungle fighters. Since they were essentially light infantry, they didnt need much supply. Plus they could handle depredation and lack of comforts much better than the allies, tells you something about their charachter.

In those books though, the authors claimed that the best jungle fighters of WW2 ended up being the Aussies. And I actually had to agree with him.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Aussies and the British had some great Jungle Fighting units.

[Nonskimmer]

The Chindits being among them. PD's grandad was one.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap I was actually going to mention that PD could probably give some really good info about that.

[plan_D]

He was a Lance Corporal in Operation Thursday (Second Chindit Operation), known as a "blitzer" because he carried a bren gun and almost always led a charge with his other "blitzers". In his own words the best jungle fighters were the Ghurkas. But the Chindits on a whole were trained on the basis that they needed to be better jungle fighters than the Japanese, and that they were.

These people were normal soldiers trained in jungle warfare. So, it was always a massive moral booster to the other lads in the jungle. They thought; "if those lads can do it, we can too." My grandad was one of the many thousands that got some disease while in the jungle (I don't know what it actually was but he told me about it) and was evacuated by Dakota. However, he was back in action before it was all over.

While he was gone a young lad of 18-19 took his bren gun (and place in the platoon) and during combat it jammed, the lad was a shot and killed as a result. That tore my grandad up 'til his dying day. Oh yeah, and mules are the greatest animal on the planet! He punched some new boy for abusing a mule, telling the lad that the mule was more worth than he was. Oh when you got him talking he wouldn't shut up it was rare to get him talking about that though.

He used to go out for a newspaper about 12 times a day to get away from my grandma 'cos she talks ALL the time!

[the lancaster kicks ass]

[syscom3]

Starting in 1944, the Aussies started training "green" US troops in the fine art of jungle warfare.

I know they had training area's set aside near New Guinie.

They certeinly knew what they were doing.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Aussies should have been pretty good at it anyhow because they lived in the Region. They were more likely to see that kind of combat more than anyone else on the Allies side up until WW2.