End of WW2 -- second part

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Do you mean in the book or in my more then likely never would happened anyhowe scenerio?

In the book, the Germans pulled out of Russia all together and even gave some of there conquered lands to Russia such as half of Poland and all of Romania (of course there was a deal to buy the Romanian oil from Russia at a "good" price which the Russians kept jacking up more and more.

In my little scenerio it would have depended on sued for it at first. Had it been Russia I dont think the borders would have returned to pre war days.

[plan_D]

It's an interesting scenario but it would have never happened. Germany were never going to give up land to the Soviet Union. They want to crush communism, if anything it would have always been the other way around.

If the Soviet Union had stopped fighting Germany, I think the policy of "Germany First" would change to "Japan First" because there was more chance of defeating Japan, as we already were defeating Japan by late 1942.
Once Japan had been finished, not even all the way, just pushed back to Japan and contained by superior naval forces. The whole Commonwealth and United States could bear down on Germany. That's a lot of men.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Britain would not have gone to a Japan first situation. Not after fighting Germany for 3 years already and investing so much into it.

[MP-Willow]

I would agree with Adler, and Pla_D, late 1942 Japan was still strog and that Pacific ocran is very big! It would have been Germany all the way and if Russia was out bombing Poesti and other eastern site for rail yards, and materials would have been a lot harder. Also the US wanted to use Russia to base bombers to hit Japan.

It is interesting though to look at these alternative actions. With most of the divisions to the west or more importantly material not going there, the RLM might have been able to develope a better plan to attack England maybe even start a second battle of Britten, think about that!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree with you willow.

[plan_D]

Well, I don't for the simple reason that Japan was not a worthy fighting force after 1942. The only reason that Japan took so long to defeat was because Europe took priority.

When, after the Allies defeated the Afrika Korps they forgot about attacking Sicily and diverted the majority to fighting Japan they could have ended them in 1944 at the latest. A combined U.S, British and Commonwealth force in Burma would have kicked them out of Burma, Malaya and Singapore quickly depriving them of all natural resources they needed to continue the war. Then a combined Naval assault aimed solely on destroying the IJN fleet instead of capturing land. Then after kicking the Japanese out of their South-East Asian Imperial empire...get on with the island hopping.

Meanwhile, Europe..what's going on in Europe? Nothing except the bombing offensive. The North Africa oil fields are in Allied hands, the Rangoon oil, the Malayan oil, the North American oil are all in Allied hands...the Germans have...the Romanian oil, and that's it. THey can't conduct mobile war across a 26 mile stretch of sea. The Italian Navy has already been battered at Taranto, so Italy isn't a bother. Germany is left with an empire on mainland Europe while Japan gets the kicking of a lifetime.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think you underestimate the Japanese. They were just not going to simply give up. Do you know what would have happened if the allies had invaded the Japanese main Islands? It would have been chaos and the more people then you can imagine would have died. The Japanese were more effective then you think they were. Read up on Okinawa, The Solomons, Iwo Jima, The Gilber Islands, Guadal Canal. All of them took place after 1942 as did all battles really in the Pacific. Ask the US Marines about Bloody Ridge from Sept 13 to 15 1942 and the will beg to differ.

[plan_D]

I'm not stupid, Adler. I know about the Japanese. However, the PTO and CBI were second to the ETO. All the equipment went to the ETO before those fighting the Japanese got a look in. Many invasions were cancelled in the Pacific because of a lack of landing craft that went to Italy or Normandy.

All that was needed was a containment of Japan, the Japanese needed to be kicked out of Burma, Singapore, Malaya and Indonesia. When that was done the Japanese had no war machine, all their materials had been lost. No invasion of Japan was needed, just containment. Kick them back to Japan.

If the PTO and CBI had the priority the Japanese would have been destroyed much earlier than Germany. Once the IJN was destroyed, as well, the Japanese had no offensive capability.

So, then what, Germany are trapped in Europe and Japan trapped in their country. Once Japan was trapped, the USN could keep them contained with blockades of Japan. Then the priority swings to Europe.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

First of all I never said you were stupid.

Second of all the Japs were a far more effective fighting force then you give them credit. Guadal Canal did not go on for 6 months because the Marines and the Navy wanted it to. And I dont think the British would have allowed the Pacific to have become a priority. First and for most for them were the Germans and it would have stayed that way.

[MP-Willow]

Adler I think he is understanding somthing, but feels that if even some of the material that went to the ETO made it to the Pacific then the Japanese would have been finished a lot sooner

Plan_D> you should understand that the Japanese would not have laid down some were still fighting into the 50s! Also Europe had to be number one as Adler said Churchill would have taken nothing elts. Now are you saying that South East Asia was the key to the Japanese war efforts? While true the materials there were key I am not shure that they would have been contained with a different effort on the Allies part. Hitler was a very agressive and unprodictable person, he would have taken great care to exploit any Japan first push.

This is some great stuff you two I hope we can keep it up!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That I can agree with. Had more of the war material gone to the Pacific it may have ended sooner but I doubt it.

[MP-Willow]

True, that war was a very different animal that a lot of people now are starting to talk about

[wmaxt]

I'm not sure the fight in the Pacitic could have gone much faster. The nature of island hopping takes a certain amount of time, organization, logistics to overcome.

wmaxt

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That I completely agree with.

[MP-Willow]

True!

It would have gone even slower if we did not side step islands like Rabaul.