The F4F / FM-2 alone would have won the war in the PTO

[GrauGeist]

Well, as far as the Russians are concerned, it wasn't as much about over-whelming the Germans with men and materials as it was the German's crappy supply system and equipment designed for European conditions and not soggy Russian terrain...

[Broncazonk]

GrauGeist wrote: "Well, as far as the Russians are concerned, it wasn't as much
about over-whelming the Germans with men and materials as it was the German's crappy
supply system and equipment designed for European conditions and not soggy Russian terrain..."

Wow, is that ever right. The more I read about the limitations of German field logistics and
the near miracles performed in Russia by German supply staff officers to keep the army
and Luftwaffe intact.... Amazing...

The German supply system in Russia was essentially based on thousands of horses pulling
heavily laden wagons across endless miles of muddy/frozen steppe.

Hitler said, "All we have to do is kick down the door and the whole rotten thing will come down."

Well...

Bronc

[drgondog]

BZ - you want to apply your theory of mass versus quality and illustrate say Iraqi T-72's against M-1's, or delve into F-15 in hands of Israeli's vs Arabs..

Your thesis is absurdly simple - make your case for gaining air superiority over Truk, Rabaul, Japan, Okinawa, etc - with just F4-F in play.. literally no land based bomber can penetrate enemy airspace with CAP. The USN can Not gain NUMERICAL air superiority against land based fighters until well into 1944 - simply because there weren't enough carriers.

The losses for air campaigns either land or sea skyrocket, losing too many good pilots to capitaize on number superiority.

Your thesis is a reasonable analogy if say P-40/Spit I are only escort fighters in ETO. 8th BC disappears in a cloud of fertilizer long befor invasion and daylight bombing stops - because the fighters can't go past France and Holland - and will not compete well against LW's progressive development.

[FLYBOYJ]

Bronc, your posts are almost entertaining. Do you have any idea how inaccurate some of your statistics are. Read Bloody Shambles and investigate the TRUE kill loss ratio of the SWPT and I think you might eventually float down to earth.

[Broncazonk]

Because the book proves my point rather conclusively.

During the battle of Singapore, British air cover was intially provided by (only 1) RAF No. 232 Squadron, based at Kallang. Tengah, Seletar and Sembawang were in range of Japanese artillery, Kallang was the only operational airstrip left and the other squadrons were withdrawn from Singapore by January. 232 Squadron performed well, but was outnumbered and it suffered severe losses, both in the air and on the ground during February. The only reliable aircraft left was the Hawker Hurricane, but only ten were left in Singapore when the Japanese invaded. 51 Hurricane Mk II fighters had been sent to Singapore with 24 pilots. The Buffalo squadrons having already been overwhelmed. No. 232 Squadron was formed and became operational on 20 January, destroying three Ki-43s that day for the loss of three Hurricanes. However, like the Buffalos before them, the Hurricanes were out-numbered and began to suffer severe losses.

During the period 27 January–30 January, another 48 Hurricanes (Mk IIA) arrived with No. 226 Group (four squadrons) on the aircraft carrier HMS Indomitable. The staggered arrival of the Hurricanes, along with inadequate early warning systems, meant Japanese air raids destroyed a large proportion of the Hurricanes on the ground in Sumatra and Singapore.

On the morning of 8 February, a number of aerial dogfights took place over Sarimbun Beach and other western areas. In the first encounter, the last ten Hurricanes of 232 Sqn were scrambled from Kallang Airfield to intercept a Japanese formation of about 84 planes, flying from Johore to provide air cover for their invasion force. Air battles went on over the island for the rest of the day, and by nightfall it was clear that with the few machines Percival had left Kallang could no longer be used as a base. With Percival's assent the remaining Hurricanes were withdrawn to Palembang, Sumatra. No allied aircraft were seen again over Singapore and the Japanese had full control of the skies.

As to the nonsense from drgondog, during Operation Mole Cricket, the Israeli airforce launched 96 F-15's and F-16's. The Syrians lanched almost exactly the same number. The Syrians did not have numerical superiority.

How can this concept be so hard to understand and accept? Just put some variables in the equations and do the math. It's not like I invented Lanchester's equations! They have been around since 1914 and are pretty fundamental to military strategy.

Bronc

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

Because the book proves my point rather conclusively.

During the battle of Singapore, British air cover was intially provided by (only 1) RAF No. 232 Squadron, based at Kallang. Tengah, Seletar and Sembawang were in range of Japanese artillery, Kallang was the only operational airstrip left and the other squadrons were withdrawn from Singapore by January. 232 Squadron performed well, but was outnumbered and it suffered severe losses, both in the air and on the ground during February. The only reliable aircraft left was the Hawker Hurricane, but only ten were left in Singapore when the Japanese invaded. 51 Hurricane Mk II fighters had been sent to Singapore with 24 pilots. The Buffalo squadrons having already been overwhelmed. No. 232 Squadron was formed and became operational on 20 January, destroying three Ki-43s that day for the loss of three Hurricanes. However, like the Buffalos before them, the Hurricanes were out-numbered and began to suffer severe losses.

During the period 27 January–30 January, another 48 Hurricanes (Mk IIA) arrived with No. 226 Group (four squadrons) on the aircraft carrier HMS Indomitable. The staggered arrival of the Hurricanes, along with inadequate early warning systems, meant Japanese air raids destroyed a large proportion of the Hurricanes on the ground in Sumatra and Singapore.

On the morning of 8 February, a number of aerial dogfights took place over Sarimbun Beach and other western areas. In the first encounter, the last ten Hurricanes of 232 Sqn were scrambled from Kallang Airfield to intercept a Japanese formation of about 84 planes, flying from Johore to provide air cover for their invasion force. Air battles went on over the island for the rest of the day, and by nightfall it was clear that with the few machines Percival had left Kallang could no longer be used as a base. With Percival's assent the remaining Hurricanes were withdrawn to Palembang, Sumatra. No allied aircraft were seen again over Singapore and the Japanese had full control of the skies.

Ok - and how does that prove your point?!?!?!?

[Broncazonk]

Maybe we should change the subject. Do you like the wings of an airplane or the horizontal stabilizers better?

Bronc

[lesofprimus]

Dude, ur a fu*kin retard and about to get ur ass seriously bounced by the high cover....

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

Maybe we should change the subject. Do you like the wings of an airplane or the horizontal stabilizers better?

Bronc

Bronc, I'm giving you a time out - re-evaluate your Prozac dosage and then come back here when you're not going to be a moron

[Shortround6]

There is a thread over on Tanknet that talks about the "Lanchester's equations".

According to one poster they were designed to deal with liner battlefeilds (ancient battles) with hand weapons and don't work to well with ranged weapons (guns) lt alone 3 dimensional warfare.

Don't know if this is true, but misaplication of formulas does lead to bad resluts.

[Vassili Zaitzev]

Originally Posted by Shortround6

There is a thread over on Tanknet that talks about the "Lanchester's equations".

According to one poster they were designed to deal with liner battlefeilds (ancient battles) with hand weapons and don't work to well with ranged weapons (guns) lt alone 3 dimensional warfare.

Don't know if this is true, but misaplication of formulas does lead to bad resluts.

Interesting.

[DBII]

The magic number has always been 3:1 for a minimum chance of getting the win. It does not matter what time frame the battle occurs. Weapons systems like aircraft, cmbt engrs, and fascam are called combat multipliers. They are factored into the mix to account for the 3D battle field. The old USSR military were masters at battle field equations. Overall there could be a 3:1 or 4:1 advantage but one command would attack at 1:1 or 2:1 odds in one area in order to get a 7:1 in the main avenue of attack. The formulas are just another planing tool. It is like the OPORD, once you hit the LD you throw it out the window.

DBII

[Guns'n'Props]

Hey guys I know I'm the new kid on the block but the Russians used to say something like "there is a certain quality about quantity" which is kind of what"Broncazonk may be trying to say.

Now I agree with other points mentioned like The USN were steadily getting better pilots / planes whilst the Japanese could not keep the pace. Again it may also be possible that the F4F / FM2 had the measure of what was left of the IJN / JAF but as some others said
1.)we know all this in hindsight
2.)why waste the lives when you have more effective weapons.

So theoretically if I was Nimitz / MacArthur with 100 Million pilots and F4Fs to spare well why not.
Thankfully reason prevailed

BTW Broncazonk I really liked the Civil War analogy.

[Messy1]

I do not think this is a totally false statement as other have said, I just think it would have been too costly in human lives overall for many reasons to have just stuck with the Wildcat. The Japanese stuck with the Zero way too long after it was outclassed by many Allied fighters, and because of this lost most of their experienced pilots due to this after the Zeros weaknesses had been found out, and after faster, more maneuverable planes had been developed and introduced by the Allies.

[Shortround6]

Japanese may have stuck with "unimproved" models of the Zero or only minor improvements much too long.

It would not have really altered the course of the war but instead of getting limited design and engineering staff to design the "NEXT" great leap forward in fighter design they might have spent more effort in refining what they did have.

Easy to say now

But look at the number of other fighters that entered service in 1940 that were improved over the years.
While the Zero was changed and went through modifications they were of minor natures.