Fact or Fiction?

[cheddar cheese]

One on one, definately.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but the -51 isn't the best plane to dogfight in they'd have their handsful with any form of spit, particularly the XIV......

[cheddar cheese]

For sure...much later plane...I wouldnt write their chances off though

[P38 Pilot]

Dogfighting??? I would go with the P-51 but the Spitfire XIV was more manverable.

The P.108 did seem like a great Italian bomber but whne compared to a B-17G, it would defintely lose.

[Sal Monella]

Was the Spit XIV in frontline service in Sept. 1943?

[Gnomey]

No.

The Spitfire Mk XIV entered in squadrons during 1944 and it was the first RR Griffon engined Spitfire to enter in large scale production. It had comletely redesigned airframe with new fuselage. It was powered by RR Griffon 65 or 66 engine with five bladed Rotol propeller. The first examples entered service in Europe with No. 610 Sqdn, in January 1944. Subsequently 37 RAF squadrons flew it. Spitfire Mk XIV was intented for combat at all altitudes. It succeeded well also against flying bombs (V1), destroying over 300.

From http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jjuvonen/planes/spit_14apd.html

While searching I found this comparison of the Spitfire MKXIV and an FW190A. It is quite interesting and is based on actual tests.
http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire14v190.htm

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by P38 Pilot

Dogfighting??? I would go with the P-51 but the Spitfire XIV was more manverable.

The P.108 did seem like a great Italian bomber but whne compared to a B-17G, it would defintely lose.

You do know that the P-51 was not the greatest dogfighter and even Bf-109s could hold there own against a P-51D right? The Spit was a much better dogfighter than the P-51.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

my mistake with the .XIV date........

Originally Posted by P-38 pilot

The P.108 did seem like a great Italian bomber but whne compared to a B-17G, it would defintely lose

the B-17G was nothing special, in 1940 the P.108 was better than the B-17, which at the time was only in the C/D stage........

[Sal Monella]

So by September 1943, which frontline model of the Spitfire was in existence?

Would that model have been able to take a Fiat G 55, Reggiane Re 2005 or Macchi Mc 205 in a dogfight where both pilots were of equal skill, aware of each other and starting from a position that favored neither.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont think so. Not much compared to the Spit in maneuvarbility. Yes I am admiting this you British blokes!

[Sal Monella]

DerAdlerIstGelandet, earlier you responded that "I would go as far to say that they were equal with advantages in some areas." to the question of if the series 5 were better than the best of their contemporaries including the spitfire.

Now you say I don't think so against the best contemporary Spitfire.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am saying they were equal at the time with each aircraft having advantages in certain areas over the other. If you read what my post said that is what I said. Against a Spitfire I dont think it would stand a chance because the Spit was more manuevarable no matter which way you look at it. The Fw-190 I would say the same. Against the best fighters of the day it did not stand a chance but it was equal to most fighters of the time.

[Sal Monella]

I haven't been able to find any information on the manueverability of these Italian fighters vs. the Spitfire except for the following:

"Experience in combat confirmed what the tests had shown, that the Folgore had lost little of the agility of the Saetta. It could still turn inside any Allied fighter including the Spitfire, which together with the P-51 was the only Allied fighter that was considered an even match."

The Folgore was the Mc-202. The Mc-205 is the same aircraft, just with a more powerful engine.

I have read elsewhere that the two were equally matched but that the spitfire had a much better armament

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Maybe like I said I believe that they were pretty equal to one another with either aircraft having advantages over the other in some areas but as I said in my last post I dont believe that it would be much of a match for a Spitfire or Fw-190. Maybe with German Engines it might have.

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by Sal Monella

So by September 1943, which frontline model of the Spitfire was in existence?

Would that model have been able to take a Fiat G 55, Reggiane Re 2005 or Macchi Mc 205 in a dogfight where both pilots were of equal skill, aware of each other and starting from a position that favored neither.

By September 1943 you have 3 major Spitfire types deployed in Italy. Spitfire Vb/c, Spitfire IX and Spitfire VIII. Speciality Spitfires like the Mk XII, Mk VI, Mk IX HF and Mk VII were generally limited to deployment on the Channel front.

In terms of speed at all altitudes and rate of climb the Spitfire IX and VIII are more than a match for the 5 serise fighters, particularly the Merlin 66 engined variants. Rate of turn probably goes to the Italians, but as Fw-190 pilots will tell you 'turning doesn't win battles'. I don't know how well the smaller wings of the Italian fighters would of performed above about 20,000 feet, but most Meditteranean theatre combat was at medium-low altitude anyway. Up high, with the 2 stage MErlins, I would give the advantage to the Spitfire, particularly the VIII.

At low level the Spitfire L.F V would of been the dominant type. This was a Mk V with clipped wingtips and a Merlin 45M, 46M, 50M or 55M running at +18lbs boost. It was used exclusively as a low level fighter with a cropped supercharger impeller and refined aerodynamics (mostly replacing the fish tail exhaust types with multi-ejector stubs and other minor changes). It produced its top speed around 6000 feet and was very useful below 10,000 feet as a knife fighter.

If both opponents were entering the dogfight from a co-energy situation, head on, at equal altitude, I would back the Spitfire. Armament and visibility are roughly the same. A Spitfire IX or VIII climbs a little better, acclerates a little better, has a noticably better power to weight ratio than any of "5" series fighters and probably is generally better in the vertical.

A Spitfire pilot would use his better rate of climb and acceleration to build a height and energy advantage over his opponent and then proceed to make a serise of slashing high speed attacks against the Italian fighter. The Italian fighter may be able to turn inside the Spitfire at low speeds (not sure about high speeds) but that means little if your opponent is higher and faster than you. Burn all your energy in turns and your a dead duck against a faster opponent.

In an evasive situation the Italian bird would probably be superior to the Spitfire, but I really know very little about their rate of roll, pitch stability, dive limits, strength of stick inputs, instanteous turn rates, sustained turn rates ect, ect. If I wanted to control airspace then I would choose the Spitfire over the Italian fighters.