Fact or Fiction?

[Sal Monella]

I understand that all three of the series 5 fighters and the Mc-202 had phenominal climb rates.

http://www.aldini.it/re2005/performances.htm


Reggiane Re-2005 Sagittario

climb rate:
19,685 ft in 5 min

As for the famed Fiat G 55:

In December 1942 a technical commission of the Regia Aeronautica was invited by Luftwaffe to test some German aircrafts in Rechlin. The visit was part of a joint plan for the standardization of the Axis aircraft production. In the same time some Luftwaffe officers visited Guidonia where they were particularly interested in the performances promised by the Serie 5's. On December 9 these impressions were discussed in a Luftwaffe staff meeting and rised the interest of Goering itself.

In February 1943 a German test commission was sent in Italy to evaluate the new Italian fighters. The commission was led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officiers and pilots nad by technical personnel, among them the Flugbaumeister Malz. The Germans carried with them also several aircrafts included a Fw190A and a Me109G for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.

The tests began February 20. The German commission, not without a certain surprise, was very impressed by the Italian aircrafts, the G55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5's were very good at low altitudes, but the G55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G55, "good" for the Re2005 and "average" for the MC205. Oberst Petersen defined the G55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22 voted to produce the G55 in Germany.

The interest of the Germans, apart from the good test results, derived also from the development possibilities they was able to see in the G55 and in the Re2005. For the Re2005 the German interest resulted in the provision of an original DB605 with the new WM injection. This engine and a VDM propeller were installed on the MM495 prototype that was acquired by Luftwaffe and tested in Rechlin. The aircraft reached 700 km/h during a test with a German pilot, but the airframe was not judged sufficiently strong for these performances.

The G55 was bigger and heavier and was considered a very good candidate for the new DB603 engine. Other visits were organized in Germany during March and May 1943 in Rechlin and Berlin. The G55 was again tested at Rechlin at the presence of Milch. Gabrielli and other FIAT personalities were invited to visit German factories and to discuss the evolution of the aircraft. The specifications of the German G55/II included the DB603 engine, five 20 mm guns and a pressurized cockpit. The suggestion of weapons in the wings, limited to one 20 mm gun for each wing, originated the final configuration of the Serie I, while the 603 engine was succesfully installed in the G56 prototypes.

As a concrete results of the German interest in the G55, the Luftwaffe acquired three complete G55 Sottoserie 0 airframes (MM91064-65-66) for evaluations and experiments giving in change three DB603 engines and original machinery for the setup of other production lines of the DB605/RA1050 RC58 I. Two of the Luftwaffe G55's remained in Turin, at the Aeritalia plants, where they were used by German and Italian engineers to study the planned modifications and the possible optimizations to the production process. Later these two were converted to Serie I and delivered to the ANR. The third one was transferred to Rechlin for tests and experiments in Germany. The DB603 engines were used to build the G56 prototypes.

The interest in the G55 program was still high after the Armistice: in October 1943 Kurt Tank, who previously personally tested a G55 in Rechlin, was in Turin to discuss about the G55 production. However, war events and the not yet optimized production process were the reasons for which the G55 program was eventually abandoned by the Luftwaffe. Early produced G55's required about 15000 manhours; while there were estimations to reduce the effort to about 9000 manhours, the German factories were able to assemble a Bf109 in only 5000 manhours.

[Gnomey]

Nice info Jabberwocky!

[Jabberwocky]

The information that my sources give is this:

Fiat G.55 Maximum Climb rate 3,300-3,900 feet per minute
Macchi 205- Maximum climb rate 3,900 feet per minute
Re-2005; Maximum Climb rate 3,750 feet per minute

Spitfire Mk VIII Maximum Climb rate 4,650 feet per minute
Spitfire Mk IX Maximum Clib rate 4,700 feet per minute

Spitfire Mk VIII (+25lbs boost) 5,580 feet per minute
Spitfire mk IX (+25lbs boost) 5,740 feet per minute

Merlin 66 engined Spitfires, which was the most common production variant, could climb to 6100 meters (20,000 feet) in slightly less than 5 minutes.

Merlin 61 engined variants did the same climb about 5.5-6 minutes, but maintained a higher rate of climb above 25,000 feet. Maximum rate of climb was around 3,850 feet per minute.

Merlin 63 engined variants made it to 20,000 feet in around 5.5 minutes. Maximum rate of climb was about 4,000 feet per minute.

[carpenoctem1689]

From everything i have ever heard, the MC.205 could turn inside a spitfire. It was also ive heard more manoueverable in every aspect. It had decent armament of two 12.7mm machine-guns, and two 20mm cannon, not too heavy, but nothing to be scoffed at. Climb was less than a spitfire, but it could still more than hold its own.

[Sal Monella]

That's my understanding too Carpenoctem.

I also heard that prior to discovering the unacceptable amount of man hours necessary to manufacture the plane, the Germans were contemplating the G.55 as the replacement for the Me-109. The Me-109's airframe had reached its developmental apex and the G 55 was thought to have superior performance potential with the new German engines.

The G 56 was developed for the Germans. It was a G 55 with a DB 603A engine.

[Sal Monella]

Gnomey posted an interesting comparison of flight tests between the FW-190A vs. Spitfire Mk V and IX.

http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire14v190.htm

Mk. V - Fw-190 is faster at all altitudes. Fw-190 has greater climb at all heights. The best speeds for climbing are approximately the same, but the angle of the FW 190 is considerably steeper. Under maximum continuous climbing conditions the climb of the FW 190 is about 450 ft/min better up to 25,000'. With both aircraft flying at high cruising speed and then pulling up into a climb, the superior climb of the FW 190 is even more marked. When both aircraft are pulled up into a climb from a dive, the FW 190 draws away very rapidly and the pilot of the Spitfire has no hope of catching it. Fw-190 can dive faster at all altitudes. Fw-190 has greater manueverability except in turning circle. Fw-190 has greater acceleration.

Mk. IX - In speed, both are roughly equal with each having a slight advantage over the other at various heights. In climb, both are roughly equal but overall, the Spitfire appears better. At 22K, the Spitfire is progressively superior. Fw-190 can dive faster at all heights. The Fw-190 is more manueverable except in turning circle. The general impression of the pilots involved in the trials is that the Spitfire Mark IX compares well with the FW 190. Providing the Spitfire IX has the initiative, it undoubtedly stands a good chance of shooting down the FW 190.

The above tests between the Fw-190A the Mk. V and IX are interesting because it was these Spitfires that were the contemporaries of the Series 5 fighters.

The G 55 in particular was found to have performance that was notably better than the Fw-190A at all altitudes.

One could easily infer that the G 55 would have edged out the Mk V and IX Spit. (All of the 5 Series fighters could turn inside of the Spitfire.)

[P38 Pilot]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

You do know that the P-51 was not the greatest dogfighter and even Bf-109s could hold there own against a P-51D right? The Spit was a much better dogfighter than the P-51.

I realise that. But i prefer the P-51D Mustang over anything. It wasnt as good as the Spitfire or Bf-109 but it could pack a pretty good punch.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That it could. I like the P-51D also I just think that a lot of it was a myth and based off of numerical superiority.

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by Sal Monella

Gnomey posted an interesting comparison of flight tests between the FW-190A vs. Spitfire Mk V and IX.

http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire14v190.htm

Mk. V - Fw-190 is faster at all altitudes. Fw-190 has greater climb at all heights. The best speeds for climbing are approximately the same, but the angle of the FW 190 is considerably steeper. Under maximum continuous climbing conditions the climb of the FW 190 is about 450 ft/min better up to 25,000'. With both aircraft flying at high cruising speed and then pulling up into a climb, the superior climb of the FW 190 is even more marked. When both aircraft are pulled up into a climb from a dive, the FW 190 draws away very rapidly and the pilot of the Spitfire has no hope of catching it. Fw-190 can dive faster at all altitudes. Fw-190 has greater manueverability except in turning circle. Fw-190 has greater acceleration.

Mk. IX - In speed, both are roughly equal with each having a slight advantage over the other at various heights. In climb, both are roughly equal but overall, the Spitfire appears better. At 22K, the Spitfire is progressively superior. Fw-190 can dive faster at all heights. The Fw-190 is more manueverable except in turning circle. The general impression of the pilots involved in the trials is that the Spitfire Mark IX compares well with the FW 190. Providing the Spitfire IX has the initiative, it undoubtedly stands a good chance of shooting down the FW 190.

The above tests between the Fw-190A the Mk. V and IX are interesting because it was these Spitfires that were the contemporaries of the Series 5 fighters.

The G 55 in particular was found to have performance that was notably better than the Fw-190A at all altitudes.

One could easily infer that the G 55 would have edged out the Mk V and IX Spit. (All of the 5 Series fighters could turn inside of the Spitfire.)

This was a test done against a Spitfire IX with a Merlin 61. The Merlin 61 produces 1,565 hp and has a best critical altitude of around 27,000 feet.

The FW-190 outperforms it at low altitude, and is outperformed by the Spitfire IX at high altitudes. At medium altitudes there is a small advantage to the 190.

The most common Spitfire in 1943 would be a L.F. IX with either a Merlin 63/63A or a Merlin 66, which offered marked improvement below 20-25,000 feet over the Merlin 61. Both produce ~1,720 hp at a critical altitude of around 22,000 feet. Rate of climb to 20,000 feet is 5-5.5 minutes, about 1.5-2 minutes or 750-1000 feet per minute faster than the Merlin 61 engined variants Speed at low and medium altitudes is around 10 mph faster. Top speed at high altitude is down by about 5 mph.

[Sal Monella]

Fiat G 55 produced 1,475 hp

[carpenoctem1689]

The germans were very interested in italian aircraft especially in 1943, because the italians produced very capable, competitive aircraft, that still had more potential. The germans looked at designs and turned them down, only because the time needed to build each one. They were clearly superior to 109s, and could still be evolved into more effective machines in time, while the 109 had reached the limit for the most part. Italian series five fighters were fast, manouverable, well armed and were more importantly, the equal or superior of anything they faced. I dont know about anyone else, but i would much rather pilot a Mc.205 in a dogfight, rather than the contemporary to the time spitfire mark.

[Jabberwocky]

There was just one G. 56s produced, and it was only a prototype. It didn't fly until March, 1944 which makes it a contemporary of the Spitfire XIV and +25lbs boost cleared Spitfire L.F. IX, both of which handily outperform it.

The G. 55 was equipped with a DB-605A engine. Maximum hp at sea level was 1,475 hp. Maximum output at rated altitude was 1,355hp at 5,700m (18,500 feet).

A Spitfire with a Merlin 66 produced more than 1500 hp at the same height, and maximum horsepower at 20-21,000 feet. It also has a slightly lighter airframe and lower loaded weight. More power + less drag should equal better performance than its opponent.

Most of the problem here is while I have very good figures for Spitfire IX performance, I have very little data for the G. 55. All I have to go on are the basic engine outputs, weights, maximum climb rates and maximum speed figures. All of these seem to give the advantage to the Spitfire.

I don't have any figures for roll, pitch or turn performance save that the G.55 could "turn inside a Spitfire". But that doesn't tell me at what speeds, altitudes and control forces it was done. The Hurricane could turn inside a Spitfire at low speed, but couldn't follow a Spitfire in high speed turns. Maybe the same is true here. Did the G. 55 outturn the Spitfire at all speed ranges or only at low or at high speed? How well did it roll at low and high speed. What were the dive speed limitations? What were the stall speeds. Did the G.55 have gentle or violent stall behaviour? Did the plane give stall warnings?

Ideally we need to see a manual or performance monogram to make a fair comparison. Otherwise we are just relegated to guess-work.

[carpenoctem1689]

The MC.205 was faster than the G.55 and the RE.2005 at altitudes below 26,000 feet, but above that it lost manouevarbility and speed quickly. It carried the lightest armament of the three, with only two fifty cal, and two 20mms, but keep in mind the MC.205 was only intended as an interim aircarft. The MC.205N-1 would have been the definitive aircraft had castoldi had the time, with a larger wing, and a nose mounted 20mm, and four wing mounted fifty cal guns. It was to be named the Orione. It would have been better than the Veltro, but required considerable retooling to produce, and was abandoned due to the war situation.

[Sal Monella]

Flight test between Spitfire Mk IX and Me-109G.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hmm interesting link there.