Flight Sims are they really as real as actually flying? - Page 10 - Aircraft of World War II

Glider · 11-06-2005, 03:12 PM

I'm a man, I can blub in the corner with the best of you.

Teach me to be so serious!!!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-06-2005, 03:16 PM

My comment was that CC was not serious.

FLYBOYJ · 11-06-2005, 06:52 PM

Today I went flying and all over the Denver area there was moderate to severe turbulence. I went about 10 miles to the north of Jeffco Airport and started to get smacked pretty bad with winds mainly from the south and continued wind shear between 75 and 8000 feet. The way the prevailing winds and wind shear were hitting my plane, I began to think about this thread. There is no way any computer model could reproduce a turbulent cold front passing through an area followed by clear air turbulence and wind shear. It would be like predicting the way a goose down feather will float to the ground level from a height of 50 feet.

After 40 minutes of this I decided to head back, it took another 20 minutes to land because of departing traffic. Even on final I had wind shear that changed my airspeed +/- 10 knots, it was unpredictable in severity and location, but dissipated when I was 300' agl....

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-06-2005, 07:02 PM

Wind shear is some nasty stuff and I agree there is no way a sim could recreate this, especially the flight sims that these guys play on the computer.

syscom3 · 11-06-2005, 09:59 PM

Wind shear is easily modeled. Nothing sophisticated about it.

Although, you do bring up an interesting point. In WW2, I wonder how many aircraft coming in for a landing in bad weather encountered wind shear, causing it to crash. The ground crews would have chalked up the crash to probable failure of the airframe due to damage or pilot injury.

FLYBOYJ · 11-07-2005, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

Wind shear is easily modeled. Nothing sophisticated about it.

Although, you do bring up an interesting point. In WW2, I wonder how many aircraft coming in for a landing in bad weather encountered wind shear, causing it to crash. The ground crews would have chalked up the crash to probable failure of the airframe due to damage or pilot injury.

While you are right about wind shear killing pilots, how do you model something that cannot be predicted in location, intensity and duration???

evangilder · 11-07-2005, 09:23 AM

Sounds like it was beating you up pretty bad up there, Joe!

FLYBOYJ · 11-07-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangilder

Sounds like it was beating you up pretty bad up there, Joe!

Yep! The up and down drafts weren't too bad (about 100-200 fpm) it was the continual side-to-side pounding that sucked, a few times I had full yoke to the left to stay level, another time just about got turned 90 degrees.

On final I lost 10 knots, fell about 200 feet (I came in high to compensate for that) and had a hard time getting stabilized. Over the numbers everything settled down and landed uneventful, although one windsock showed about 25 knots, the other one at the far end of the field was limp!

Again, this scenario is dynamic and unless you fly in it you cannot understand that no sim could model all these elements. When you apply these conditions in a sim, they aren't close to the real thing.....

evangilder · 11-07-2005, 10:05 AM

Geez, and I thought having a marine layer sucked.

syscom3 · 11-07-2005, 10:18 AM

The dynamics of wind shear and turbulence is understood well enough to be modeled. Its nothing but some equations. Whats still being learned is the conditions that create it.

But that means the flight simulator can be programmed to randomly select what parameters of turbulence and wind shear to simulate. All it needs to know is how much intensity and what duration you want to simulate. If you want it to be random, then no problem. Just another option to select on bootup.

Remember, the absence of a wind shear simulation on your PC is not proof that it cannot be simulated.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-07-2005, 02:41 PM

Again how are you experiences Wind Shear. You are not.

syscom3 · 11-07-2005, 02:45 PM

Its just air flow over the airframe and through the engines.

Pushs the frame around a bit and changes the lift on the wings.

It could also change the amount of air going into the engines, thus changing thrust.

Again, nothing complicated about modeling. Just parameter selections.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-07-2005, 02:50 PM

Again how are you experiencing it. You are completly scooting around the facts.

syscom3 · 11-07-2005, 02:59 PM

You can have a stick shaker to simulate turbulence.

A three axis sim can give you the accelerations in those axis's as detemrined by the computer.

And of course, the simulator has the lines of code to determine what these wind forces do to lift and stability so you know what the aircraft will do under any scenario.

You can even simulate the airplane flying through a tornado if you desire.
Nothing sophisticated to program. Just a series of equations.

Its just like how the nuke weapons scientists figure out what happens when a weapon is exploded. Just breakdown the events into trillionth of a second "slices" and watch the simulator model the detonation.

11-06-2005, 01:55 PM	#136
Gnomey "World Traveller" Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Royal Deeside/St Andrews, Scotland, UK Posts: 16,525	__________________ "Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal, it is the Courage to Continue that Counts" Sir Winston Churchill "To him the People of the World Largely owe the Freedom and Liberties they Enjoy Today" Enscription on Hugh Dowding's (AOC Fighter Command 1936-40) statue in London WW2 Talk: A WW2 Discussion Forum My Photo Collections on Flickr

11-06-2005, 03:16 PM	#138
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 34,081	My comment was that CC was not serious. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

11-06-2005, 06:52 PM	#139
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,877	Today I went flying and all over the Denver area there was moderate to severe turbulence. I went about 10 miles to the north of Jeffco Airport and started to get smacked pretty bad with winds mainly from the south and continued wind shear between 75 and 8000 feet. The way the prevailing winds and wind shear were hitting my plane, I began to think about this thread. There is no way any computer model could reproduce a turbulent cold front passing through an area followed by clear air turbulence and wind shear. It would be like predicting the way a goose down feather will float to the ground level from a height of 50 feet. After 40 minutes of this I decided to head back, it took another 20 minutes to land because of departing traffic. Even on final I had wind shear that changed my airspeed +/- 10 knots, it was unpredictable in severity and location, but dissipated when I was 300' agl.... __________________ > I Support Doug Gillis <

11-06-2005, 07:02 PM	#140
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 34,081	Wind shear is some nasty stuff and I agree there is no way a sim could recreate this, especially the flight sims that these guys play on the computer. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

11-06-2005, 09:59 PM	#141
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,813	Wind shear is easily modeled. Nothing sophisticated about it. Although, you do bring up an interesting point. In WW2, I wonder how many aircraft coming in for a landing in bad weather encountered wind shear, causing it to crash. The ground crews would have chalked up the crash to probable failure of the airframe due to damage or pilot injury. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

11-06-2005, 03:12 PM	#137
Glider Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London Posts: 3,917	I'm a man, I can blub in the corner with the best of you. Teach me to be so serious!!!

11-07-2005, 09:23 AM	#143
evangilder "Shooter" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA Posts: 15,421	Sounds like it was beating you up pretty bad up there, Joe! __________________ For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return. Leonardo Da Vinci

11-07-2005, 10:05 AM	#145
evangilder "Shooter" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA Posts: 15,421	Geez, and I thought having a marine layer sucked. __________________ For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return. Leonardo Da Vinci

11-07-2005, 10:18 AM	#146
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,813	The dynamics of wind shear and turbulence is understood well enough to be modeled. Its nothing but some equations. Whats still being learned is the conditions that create it. But that means the flight simulator can be programmed to randomly select what parameters of turbulence and wind shear to simulate. All it needs to know is how much intensity and what duration you want to simulate. If you want it to be random, then no problem. Just another option to select on bootup. Remember, the absence of a wind shear simulation on your PC is not proof that it cannot be simulated. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

11-07-2005, 02:41 PM	#147
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 34,081	Again how are you experiences Wind Shear. You are not. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

11-07-2005, 02:45 PM	#148
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,813	Its just air flow over the airframe and through the engines. Pushs the frame around a bit and changes the lift on the wings. It could also change the amount of air going into the engines, thus changing thrust. Again, nothing complicated about modeling. Just parameter selections. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

11-07-2005, 02:50 PM	#149
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 34,081	Again how are you experiencing it. You are completly scooting around the facts. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

11-07-2005, 02:59 PM	#150
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,813	You can have a stick shaker to simulate turbulence. A three axis sim can give you the accelerations in those axis's as detemrined by the computer. And of course, the simulator has the lines of code to determine what these wind forces do to lift and stability so you know what the aircraft will do under any scenario. You can even simulate the airplane flying through a tornado if you desire. Nothing sophisticated to program. Just a series of equations. Its just like how the nuke weapons scientists figure out what happens when a weapon is exploded. Just breakdown the events into trillionth of a second "slices" and watch the simulator model the detonation. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

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