Focke Wulf Fw190D-9 victories

[weinace]

Hi!

I've been told the pilots with the greatest numbers of victories in a Fw190D-9 are:-

Hans Dortenmann 18
Werner Schroer 12
Hans Prager 10
Peter Crump 5
Günther Rey 5

I'd be grateful for any comments/updates?

Regards,

weinace

 

[kettbo]

I would have thought more aces and higher kill numbers as much as DORA 9 gets (generally) good press.
Fall of 44 through Spring 45, 6 months (+/-) is lot of time AND there were always plenty of Allied aircraft flying.
I'll be watching this thread for developments

 

[GregP]

I've never seen Fw 190 kills broken out by variant.

 

[weinace]

Thank you both very much for your replies.
Here's hoping somewhere in the digital universe someone has the information!!!
Regards,
weinace

 

[weinace]

More information has been supplied on L.E.M.B. i.e. that Anton Hackl claimed 13 victories in a Fw190D-9 and Peter Marquardt claimed 21 victories in a Fw190D-9.

 

[GregP]

The breakouts for German victories I have are all by pilot and the type fighter flown is not included in the information. Mostly the type victim IS included. So we know, for instance, the breakdown of Erich Hartmann's victories by type, but we only know he was in a Bf 109 for most if not all of them, not the Bf 109 variant specifically.

Where would the data for the breakdown by Fw 190 D-9 come from? What source. Even if it comes from the LEMB, the data should have some source documents or else it is conjecture.

 

[Juha]

IMHO if the claim dates and the units at which the pilot served on those dates are known we know the a/c type in almost all cases but few exceptions.

juha

 

[stona]

Where would the data for the breakdown by Fw 190 D-9 come from? What source.

Usually an individual pilot's flugbuch.

They are almost all claims not confirmed victories. The claims verification system had pretty much stopped functioning at around the time the Fw 190 D-9 was making it to operational units.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Aozora]

I would have thought more aces and higher kill numbers as much as DORA 9 gets (generally) good press.
Fall of 44 through Spring 45, 6 months (+/-) is lot of time AND there were always plenty of Allied aircraft flying.
I'll be watching this thread for developments

The problem wasn't so much that there were plenty of Allied aircraft to shoot at; post D-Day the Jagdwaffe had far fewer experienced veterans ("alte hase" or old hares who were capable of using the likes of the Fw 190D-9 to advantage, plus there were increasingly severe flight restrictions imposed on all fighter pilots; eg:

(from Weal Bf 109F/G K Aces of the Western Front)

In late October 1944, after major American bombing raids which destroyed several important refineries, the RLM further restricted flight operations:

 

[GregP]

I have a training mission in mind with the rather obviously raw recruit above. I wonder if any wine can be spared for the mission ... assuming she's over the age of consent, that is"

1. Pour water on her and on yourself.

2. Clearly state, "Hey, we'd better get out of these wet things!"

3. Proceed as the opportunity presents itself.

4. The objective is to place your flagpole at the target area, thereby winning the game.

 

[Milosh]

IMHO if the claim dates and the units at which the pilot served on those dates are known we know the a/c type in almost all cases but few exceptions.

juha

Like from this link, at least up to the end of 1944.

The Luftwaffe, 1933-45

 

[bobbysocks]

i wonder how many times the order not to fly unless accompanied by 5, 15, and 44 ac was broken by the respective ranking officers.....that could be a hard pill to swallow.

 

[GregP]

I'd bet good money that the better Luftwaffe pilots, who were usually leaders in their units, pretty much flew whenever they thought the top brass would not be visiting or pointedly looking at them.

 

[Aozora]

The biggest problem for the Jagdwaffe was that they were flying on purely defensive missions against several enemies, all of whom had air-superiority if not air supremacy. The old free-wheeling days of compiling huge scores over the Russian front, or facing pinprick RAF raids and unescorted American bomber formations, were long over by the time the Fw 190D entered service - if anything, under the circumstances the scores posted (Hans Dortenmann 18; Werner Schroer 12; Hans Prager 10; Peter Crump 5; Günther Rey 5) should probably be considered to be highly creditable on the part of those pilots and realistic; the same comments apply to those few who became aces flying the Bf 109G-10 K-4.

 

[Milosh]

I'd bet good money that the better Luftwaffe pilots, who were usually leaders in their units, pretty much flew whenever they thought the top brass would not be visiting or pointedly looking at them.

So an ace pilot in a unit that flew Fw190As could be flying a BF109. Not very likely for the logistics to keep that single Bf109 flying would be next to impossible. He would also have to have mechanic(s) trained on the Bf109.

 

[GregP]

What the heck are you saying, Milosh, I said WHENEVER they wanted, not WHATEVER. However, Hartmann, Barkhorn, and Rall stayed with the Bf 109 for the entire war ...

The earlier post said they were supposed to stay out of combat unless heavily escorted. I was saying they probably flew WHENever they wanted to fly, regardless of escort.

Of course, I've never made a reading mistake like that .... ha ha ...

 

[Crimea_River]

However, Hartmann, Barkhorn, and Rall stayed with the Bf 109 for the entire war ...
.

Barkhorn flew the Dora.

 

[kettbo]

Aozora, yes, that little fuel shortage problem!

I am curious though, let's go NOV '44-APRIL '45 (inclusive), 6 month period, WHO from any side had the most air-to-air kills?
Germans dealing with little fuel
Western Allies not seeing much of the LW
Soviet planes are better and aircrew seasoned
Some of these POINT-IN-TIME numbers from early in the war are most interesting.

 

[weinace]

Thank you all for your interesting input.
Sorry I have not answered before, but I was not near a computer for a couple of days.
Regards,
weinace

 

[FalkeEins]

the Kommandeur IV./JG 51 Oblt. Günther Josten claimed at least 10 on the Dora including five kills on one sortie ...translated extract from his memoir 'Gefechtsbericht'

" 25 April 1945. We had in the mean time taken on charge several Fw 190 D-9 fighters and shot down a lot of enemy planes with them. Just ferrying his machine in Ofw. Marquardt accounted for four Yak-3 fighters alone. On the 25th I achieved a new record for D-9 victories in a single day. On the first sortie I shot down a single Yak 3 and three Il-2s. On the next sortie I was accompanied by Ofw. Rauch. We flew together as a Rotte and downed nine Reds. I got five of them. We firstly ran into 50 Bostons and 30 Airacobras. We both shot down an Airacobra and then I got a Boston and then another to finish. Then we encountered 20 Il-2s and 30 Yak 3s. Rauch finished off two Yak 3s while I shot down two Il-2s for a total of nine victories in two sorties. The following day I added a further Yak 3 to my tally to bring my total number of aerial victories to 178.."