frf3 wildcat v. hurricane1

[fibus]

The British flew both. Winkle Brown flew both.
They were of the same era.
How did they compare?

[renrich]

The early F4F3, which I think you are referring to, was very light with sprightly performance. As weight was added, protected tanks, armor, it's performance suffered. It's 4-50 cals was potent armament against German bombers.

[Daviducus2]

I posted a similar thread more than 4 years ago that may yield something interesting:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...dcat-1550.html (Hawker Hurricane Mk. IIB vs. Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat)

[davebender]

What makes you say that? Compared to cannon armed aircraft the F4F and most other American made fighter aircraft of WWII were rather lightly armed.

[renrich]

Dave, it is my understanding that the Hurricane I was armed with 8-303s. I believe that 4-50s with 400 rounds per gun is a lot more firepower. No less an authority than Eric Brown stated that the Wildcat 'Had a heavier punch than the ME109F". and that the Wildcat was 'powerfully armed."

[davebender]

Hurricane I was armed with 8-303s. I believe that 4-50s with 400 rounds per gun is a lot more firepower.

I agree. But that does not mean the F4F was heavily armed.

[pbfoot]

I'm aware this doesn't indicate the model of the Wildcat that would be up to some one in the know on the USN but the Hurris were Mk XII' I'm not taking this as gospel for type vs type but in this case it seems the Hurri came out on top



"Along with submarine patrols, 128 Squadron carried out a number of exercises with the Army and Navy in addition to our own squadron exercises On 6 July 1943, the USS Wasp an American aircraft carrier arrived in St Johns harbour after completing a tour of duty against the Japanese in the Pacific theatre . The Wasp carried a full complement of Grumman Wildcat fighters That evening, many of the Wildcat pilots arrived at our Mess in Torbay We heard some pretty hairy stories of events that some a them had experienced an the Pacific .After a few rounds from the bar, a discussion developed regarding the merits of the Wildcats versus the Humcane IT continued until the Americans issued a challenge. They would have four Wildcats at Torbay the following morning The tactics were sample Four pairs, each consisting a.
Wildcat and a Hurricane would meet at an agreed upon altitude .
in each of the four quadrants of the sky, North west, south and east a of the airport They would meet. fly in formation for a minute or two , then break up and approach each other head on From then on it was a straight dogfight, with each pilot trying to get on the other fellows tail. Flight Commanders were not allowed to fly on either side We were part of the large audience assembled on the ground to see the show Everythmg went according to plan. All the aircraft met, flew in formation for a minute or two, and then began dogfiglmng In a couple of minutes there were four Hurricane - the tails of four Wildcats, and they stayed there, to great applause and shouts from the audience below.
After landing, everyone adjourned to the hangar to hash out . the situation The Amencans seemed completely nonplused by turn of events They could not understand how things could turned out the way they had It must have been some kind of aberrartion that could never happen again, so they issued a challenge for the following afternoon this tame, they announced flight Commanders could fly, so I decided to get in on the fun in Humcane 5485 That afternoon the two readiness aircraft, equipped with depth charges. were sitting on the tarmac Butch Washburn and Gibby Gibbs were the readiness pilots that day and Butch said to me, you know Bill, I thank we can take on these buggers with those readiness aircraft ''. "why not i replied We lined up a fourth pilot and the exercise was carried out all over again with four Hurricanes on the tails of four 'Wildcats once again Butch Washburn was so keen rhat he stayed on the 'Wildcat's tail; until it landed on the runway. The Americans were forced to admit that the Hurricane was a better aircraft. even when it was ladened down with depth charges."

[Vincenzo]

Originally Posted by renrich

Dave, it is my understanding that the Hurricane I was armed with 8-303s. I believe that 4-50s with 400 rounds per gun is a lot more firepower. No less an authority than Eric Brown stated that the Wildcat 'Had a heavier punch than the ME109F". and that the Wildcat was 'powerfully armed."

i think that a mg 151/20 and 2 mg 131 all in the nose are best that 4 ,50 browning in the wing

Edit

the F haven't the mg 131 (ony Galland personal plane have it) but mg17 so i think thet are even

[renrich]

Pb, that story about Hurricanes defeating Wildcats with depth charges on board sounds a little questionable to me. The F4F4 was certainly not a high performance AC but if the Hurricanes were that much better then the pilots flying Hurricanes in the CBI and PTO must have been terrible because their record against Zekes was not great and the Wildcat's record was no worse than even.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by renrich

Pb, that story about Hurricanes defeating Wildcats with depth charges on board sounds a little questionable to me. The F4F4 was certainly not a high performance AC but if the Hurricanes were that much better then the pilots flying Hurricanes in the CBI and PTO must have been terrible because their record against Zekes was not great and the Wildcat's record was no worse than even.

I don't disagree with you but what I like to know is what unit was aboard the Wasp. I often indicated that these "dogfights" mean little as the pilots flying are an unknown quantity as opposed to what is known about their aircraft

[renrich]

pb, I think I have found out why those Wildcats got trounced by the Hurricanes. The story says the USS Wasp arrived in St Johns on 6 July, 1943 after completing a tour of duty against the Japanese in the Pacific.. Wasp, CV7 was torpedoed and sunk on 9/15/42. Wasp, CV 18, an Essex class was not completed until 8/17/43. So, either those Wildcats were salvaged from the bottom of the Pacific and did not fly well or the story is not accurate. I doubt if any Wildcats served on CV18, the Essex class CV.

[DAVIDICUS]

renrich, I too thought it a bit odd but didn't look further into the account. I was thinking, "What the heck was the Wasp doing there in 1943 in the first place?"

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by renrich

pb, I think I have found out why those Wildcats got trounced by the Hurricanes. The story says the USS Wasp arrived in St Johns on 6 July, 1943 after completing a tour of duty against the Japanese in the Pacific.. Wasp, CV7 was torpedoed and sunk on 9/15/42. Wasp, CV 18, an Essex class was not completed until 8/17/43. So, either those Wildcats were salvaged from the bottom of the Pacific and did not fly well or the story is not accurate. I doubt if any Wildcats served on CV18, the Essex class CV.

GREAT RESEARCH!!!!!

[pbfoot]

then what carrier was there I've seen the account from different guys who were there,

[JoeB]

USS Ranger was. That ship and its air group hadn't seen combat action in the Pacific though. The group's then single fighter squadron VF-4 (had been designated VF-41 earlier in WWII) had seen one successful combat against French fighters at Casablanca. Ranger was shortly after assigned to the British Home Fleet and carried out a successful raid on German shipping in Norway that October, VF-4 shot down a couple of German snoopers but didn't encounter German fighters. No carrier unit was based in Newfoundland after seeing action in the Pacific.

That's an interesting story I guess, but even if 100% true as told, it would be subject to the vagaries of the specific situation and pilots. And as it is the already apparent inaccuracies (Wasp and 'saw action in the Pacific') give it a distinct 'sea story' kind of flavor. I wonder how VF-4 would recall the same episode, assuming it happened at all.

OTOH there's a clear factual combat record of the Hurricane in action v modern Japanese (Zero and Type 1) fighters in 1942 that was consistently disastrous, and the Wildcat's which was about even in 1942 (later on Hurricanes did passably v Type 1's, but later on Wlidcats did better still even against the later Japanese fighters). When that's brought up, Hurricane fans inevitably question, pilots, situation etc. and there are always such variables, but at least that's real combat, we can verify the facts based on both sides of the story, Allied and Japanese records, and it's a bigger sample of events as well.

Joe