 | Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang| Aviation Discuss Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang in the World War II - Aviation forums; well if the pilot's unconscience then the plane's going down weather it's shot down or not, unless ... |
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02-11-2006, 10:10 AM
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#181 | | Master of Ewes
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,959
Country:  | well if the pilot's unconscience then the plane's going down weather it's shot down or not, unless the pilot recouvers..........
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"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy." | 
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02-11-2006, 01:20 PM
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#182 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,198
Country:  | Thats was not my point sys.
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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02-20-2006, 01:50 AM
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#183 | | Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 191
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky Quote: |
Originally Posted by Lunatic Quote: |
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky Lunatic:
My October 1944 and April 1945 charts for F4U-4 both have 446 mph as max speed for military power and 452 mph as max speed for War Emergency Power at 70" HG and 20, 300 and 20,800 feet respectively.
Configuration was clean and T/O weight was ~12,500 lbs
This is the first time I have run into the 464 mph figure. Are you sure it isn't just a typographic error? | Check for yourself... http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/
Notice the "clean configuration" figures in the notes and convert KNOTS to mph.
=S=
Lunatic | Thanks for the link. Great stuff.  My Broadband is going to be worked overtime tonight! 
Looking at the F4U-4 link, I think it possible that one of us has made a mistake in our calculations.
Max speed is given as 393 knots @ 20,500 feet.
1 knot = 1.1508 miles
393 kph = 452.25 mph
So, by my calculation, the max speed of the F4u-4 is 452 mph.
Also, check the knots to mph conversion chart on the side of the 1.6mb F4u-4. 393 knots is pretty much bang on 452 mph. | No, look at the notes on the last page: "Clean Condition: Same as Combat Condition except pylons removed. At combat power, Vmax/SL = 333 knots and Vmax/ACA = 403 knots/20600 ft."
403 knots = 463.7724 mph
Now, you might want to argue that removing the capped pylons is somehow "unfair", but I'd point out that maximum speed figures for European aircraft were without such accutriments even though actual combat aircraft almost never flew without them. In fact, some of the German and British figures are even sans radio antenna.
Regardless, the point is that the generally accepted figures for US aircraft, published during the early cold war years, are military power figures, not Combat power figures.
=S=
Lunatic | |
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02-20-2006, 01:54 AM
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#184 | | Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 191
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Originally Posted by syscom3 If the pilot is unconscience, then it doesnt matter if the plane can handle 9 gee's or 20 gee's. Its going to be shotdown. | Not necessarily. Some manuvers may involve very short duration high G levels. A human can sustain very high G's for a couple of seconds, but if the plane cannot withstand them then..... | |
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02-20-2006, 12:11 PM
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#185 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 8,445
| The couple seconds he is blacked out is a couple of seconds he has lost situational awareness, with potentially fatal results.
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"Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?" | 
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02-20-2006, 12:27 PM
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#186 | | Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 191
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Originally Posted by syscom3 The couple seconds he is blacked out is a couple of seconds he has lost situational awareness, with potentially fatal results. | No disagreement there. But lets say the pilot puts the plane through a 9G cornerning manuver. G levels are over 5G's for less than 5 seconds. The pilot will not black out from this, however if the wings rip off the plane that really does not matter.
The point I'm trying to make is that G tolerance is also time dependant. People can withstand up to well over 10 G's for brief periods and not pass out. If you are in good health and the G's do not come on instaneously and drop off quickly you can take a surprising high G load. On the other hand, much lower G loads over extended periods will make you pass out. 4G's is probably enough to make 95% of pilots pass out after 30+ seconds.
Taller men also tend to have less G-tolerance. For best G tolerance you want short squat men with high blood pressure! Robert Johnson looked like a beer barrel with arms and legs!
=S=
Lunatic | |
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03-07-2006, 02:22 AM
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#187 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,198
Country: | I can only dream of what 10Gs must feel like. We did a 3 G maneuver the other day on a training flight and the weight on my legs and body felt crazy. I have experienced higher than 3 but never anything higher than 4. 10 must be fricken amazing!
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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03-08-2006, 12:32 PM
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#188 | | Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 191
| It certainly won't be comfortable. But my point is that for a couple of seconds you can withstand 10 G's w/o passing out. Imagine sitting in a chair that takes a 10 foot fall and lands on firm grass. That'd be 10+ G's instantaneous decelleration.
Remember, I'm not saying the pilot could do much under such G forces, simply that the plane's ability to survive such instantaneous G loads is important becasuse if the wings come off there is no possiblity of recovery or continuing to fight. To humans, sustained G loading leads to physical failure, but to machines, instaneous G loading is what leads to catastrophic failure. | |
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03-08-2006, 02:06 PM
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#189 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,524
Country:  | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Lunatic It certainly won't be comfortable. But my point is that for a couple of seconds you can withstand 10 G's w/o passing out. Imagine sitting in a chair that takes a 10 foot fall and lands on firm grass. That'd be 10+ G's instantaneous decelleration. | I've taken 5 and 6 Gs for limited periods WITHOUT a G suit and besides from being grayed and blacked out it felt like I got flattened by a bus while my stomach was being lifted into my throat. After the flight and into the next day I felt like I spent 3 days in the gym on every weight machine - and I'm in decent shape - 5'10" 185 pounds...
I've flown with a G suit and pulled about the same in an F-4 and in a T-33. It helps but you still feel it....
You ain't taking 10Gs without passing out unless you're in olympic shape or Superman.....
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"  | |
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03-08-2006, 04:35 PM
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#190 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 1,178
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ Quote: |
Originally Posted by Lunatic It certainly won't be comfortable. But my point is that for a couple of seconds you can withstand 10 G's w/o passing out. Imagine sitting in a chair that takes a 10 foot fall and lands on firm grass. That'd be 10+ G's instantaneous decelleration. | I've taken 5 and 6 Gs for limited periods WITHOUT a G suit and besides from being grayed and blacked out it felt like I got flattened by a bus while my stomach was being lifted into my throat. After the flight and into the next day I felt like I spent 3 days in the gym on every weight machine - and I'm in decent shape - 5'10" 185 pounds...
I've flown with a G suit and pulled about the same in an F-4 and in a T-33. It helps but you still feel it....
You ain't taking 10Gs without passing out unless you're in olympic shape or Superman..... | Thats probably true. I find it interesting that the US AF requires a fighter pilot to be able to tolerate 9g for a specified period (I think without a G suit) before they are even accepted for a fighter training slot. I'll try to get the specifics but I don't have them handy.
wmaxt | |
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03-08-2006, 05:52 PM
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#191 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas
Posts: 405
Country: | Wow. 
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"And when he gets to heaven,
To Saint Peter he will tell;
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I've served my time in hell." A marine gravemarker on guadalcanal | |
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03-12-2006, 01:22 AM
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#192 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NEW YORK, NEW YORK
Posts: 210
| wmaxt I'd love to see that, & 2nd elmilitaro... | |
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03-12-2006, 05:21 PM
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#193 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 1,178
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Originally Posted by JonJGoldberg wmaxt I'd love to see that, & 2nd elmilitaro... | I first heard it on a documentary and have seen it elsewhere since then, unfortunately I did not save the source I'm not even sure it was on line. I think the time was 10 seconds and that was in a centrafuge so they had to deal with the acceleration to that point.
I will keep trying to find the info.
wmaxt | |
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03-13-2006, 02:50 PM
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#194 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,198
Country: | Ive heard the same thing, but I am not sure about it.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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03-13-2006, 03:20 PM
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#195 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,954
| Its true alright, I know for a fact that a F-16 pilot must be able to withstand 9 G's without a G-suit for x amount of time, before being accepted for further training. This precaution is needed in-case of a G-suit failure in a combat situation, where you need to be sure the pilot can take these forces regardless. Pilots also train vigorously to be in shape if such a failure should happen as their lives may come to depend on it.
__________________  We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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